If the doors to York were opened...

[Anonymous]

Pease;

Sorry that you've had a bad experience with TCA. They're
not all bad guys. I do remember the incident that you've
written about. Not good. All families have a "bad child",
try to look beyond that. I have to agree that this seems to
be becoming a rich person's hobby. I and others here have
posted about this as well. (How are you doing, Brianel?)
It's sort of hard to refute your comments as it looks like you
did your homework. Any TCAers want to comment? I do
feel your pain on this one, but I don't know how to help.
Just try to keep an open mind.

[Anonymous]

If the membership is so "strong" then how come they have lost over 2000 members in the last 4 years? In just the last two months alone they have lost 200 members.* I sure don't think that many have died! I have talked to many people who say that TCA has out
lived its time. They tell me that TCA is made up of mostly dealers, antique brokers, rich investors and speculators. I attended a TCA show at York once and that seemed to be the case. There wasn't much there that was affordable to the regular train person.

When you read items in the TCA print now days they are mostly about how much a certain train is or could eventually be worth, how a train is not worth anything if a part has been replaced or missing, articles on counterfeiting and fraud, "collectors standards",
"finders fees" for collectors and investors and how much money people have to throw at train collecting. (An add states that "I wnat to spend $500,000 on train collections this year")! All of the things I mention in this paragraph are plainly mentioned in the TCA Headquarters News this month! There is only ONE article that even REMOTELY mentioned operating trains in the WHOLE ISSUE and it was about the Kids Club. What
happened to the "fellowship", "history", etc. that TCA is SUPPOSED to be about?

I remember seeing an article two years ago in a national toy train magazine that told how a dealer at York got so tired of having people ask him about the price of some articles he was selling that he pitched a fit, took a hammer and smashed these supposedly
"valuable collectors items" into pieces rather that sell them at a lower than asking price!
BTW that "other magazine" is your competitor! They even published pictures of the broken items!**

Complaints were made to the TCA President about this and other incidents and were dismissed with the comments "It's their stuff." and "Its all about the money anyway."
What happened to "conduct unbecoming a member"? Or "unsportsmanlike conduct"?
Or setting an example for the younger folks? (I'm one of those.) One day I hope to have children and I sure don't want to expose them to the immature and greedy actions of people like I have seen at the York meet I went to. ("What's it say on the sticker? Can't you read?")

Maybe TCA won't open their meets because the public would see things TCA doesn't want seen!

*source....TCA National Headquarters News. July 2004. page4

**source....O Gauge Railroading Magazine. August 2002. page102 "Crunch Time at York" w/picture

I know I'm going to get flamed about this, but I am a "younger person" and I'm just pointing out plain facts that are in print and everyday people see around them when they go to some of these "family train shows" sponsored by special interest groups like TCA.

Some of us just try to get by, make a living and have a hobby to enjoy when we have some free time (very little) and hopefully have a little something to pass to our children.

[Anonymous]

I think opening up Saturday afternoon would be good because:
1. it gets pretty darn slow on Saturday
2. the society needs to grow, yes membership is strong, but what is the average age?
3. our division meets do it all the time, its great
4. I think inclusiveness is better than exclusiveness (the attitude that kept me from joining for years and keeps good people from joining)

[FJ and G]

Agree w/Bill. WOuld help the hobby.

------------------------------------------
"York is a good place to get laid..."

Very doubtful. Sounds like advice from a high-pressure tour guide.

[ben10ben]

QUOTE: Besides York is a good place to get laid at. I have done some of the TCA members wives and dealers wives too.

Whether or not this comment is true(and I really hope that it's not), it has absolutely no place whatsoever on this forum or any other online train forum.

[3railguy]

Why York gets a bad rap for not opening doors to the general public is beyond me. The TCA already has its year round museum dedicated to attracting the general public. It has trains of several eras on display and operating layouts for the public to see. The museum's goal is to promote the hobby to the general public. It does a much better job than York ever could because it's open all year around and people are exposed to trains for what they are without having to decifer sales pitches. After seeing the museum, the general public can get a much better idea of what the TCA and York is about so they can join the TCA. The TCA board has enough on their hands controlling table theft and fraud as it is. Opening the doors to the general public only adds to their burden. If MTH and Lionel really want to promote their products through the TCA, I suggest they contribute more to the museum.

The TCA and York started out as an association of serious collectors who trade amongst themselves to get their collections where they want them. Over the years, the TCA has grown and so has York. York is no longer the swap meet it once was. Sure their are private sellers but I see manufacturers and commercial dealers with a profit margin in mind wanting to make an institution out of York. Exploiting members and the staff. I'm sorry but that's not what the TCA is all about.

[Anonymous]

let's face it , the fat grease-balls that run the TCA are behind the times. Lets look at the age group that comes to this show. 45+. We are not getting any backfill as the older members die out. Just look at the membership numbers. The kids today play with video games not toy trains. I have been slowly selling off my collection before the market drops again. Besides York is a good place to get laid at. I have done some of the TCA members wives and dealers wives too. OPEN IT UP TO THE PUBLIC WHILE SOME OF US CAN STILL MAKE A BUCK!!!

[artyoung]

As has been pointed out, some divisions and chapters already allow non-members access to meets. I see no problem with opening the doors on Saturday. As a member since '88, I cringe each time the club is labeled "elitist". We really aren't a bunch of avaricious old farts looking to snub other hobbists/collectors. The probation period is too long, I'll admit, but be honest: don't we all try to avoid people whose business dealings are somewhat shady? Think back to the times when you've been ripped-off by a buyer or a seller. When found-out by the club, these people lose their membership (and deservedly so). Open the doors, but keep the TCA and it's meets an example of straight -forward dealing.

[Anonymous]

I AGREE with Joe. If you're going to attract new people to the hobby, open the doors and let them all come in.

M. DONALDSON

[Anonymous]

York should be open to everyone at all times. A lot of TCA members live in the past. They need to loosen up and get with the times!

pax[C):-)]

[Anonymous]

Last summer the Pacific Northwest Division had an open meet in Ellensburg, a small town in Central Washington in the midst of ranch/farm country. I had a table, and seized the opportunity to sell extras/duplicates of mine and some HO stuff from my brother's estate: Plasticville @ $5 max, Marx tunnels @ $6-8, HO rolling stock@$4ea or 3/$10, and so on. I sold practically everything except 40 pieces of Mint Super O track which I had priced at $2 ea. (Still puzzled by that.)
I don't know if those folks were toy train collectors or not, and I don't know if any have joined TCA. There were a lot of families coming through, and they tended not to reach for their wallets, although one mother came back to my table and spent $50 on Plasticville "for the Christmas Tree." But with 4 or 5 display layouts in the back, I think every visitor came away with somethig positive. And the PNWD is doing the show there again this summer, so at least a number of members think it is a good idea.
By the way, I have no problem sponsoring prospective TCA members who ask, once I determine he/she is not a blowhard or merely looking for financial gain. My local toy train club, of which maybe 60-70% are also TCA members, has a tougher admission policy than TCA. In addition to the application, we have prospective members give a short speech about their collecting/operating interests, and why they want to join. They must attend two consecutive meetings, and then the entire membership votes on admission. And yes, we have rejected prospective members.
So, if I were in charge at York, I would recommend an open day, and as for the credit thing, I have never taken a bad check at a toy meet, but would be OK with a cash-only policy for non-TCA members at a meet the size of York.

[Anonymous]

Lemme tell ya... I *rejoined* because I saw the benefits! Guys with "trains in their blood" DO join the TCA. "Tire kickers" do not. Education, cameraderie and York are great reasons to join.
I don't think 'opening the doors' at York would have any impact. Newcomers are not going to fly across country or even drive 100 miles for an event like York. They'll stay at their local hobby shop until they get more acclimated to the hobby, and eventually those who get 'into it' will see the TTML and other forums, read the hobby publications, and ask about TCA membership. I would bet any LHS could easily suppy the names of a few sponsors.
Personally, I think sponsorship IS a good thing. Everyone in the TCA knows AT LEAST one person who could help with questions, and if not, they ask someone who asks someone and on and on. Riffraff is kept to a minimum with that format; and those who try flimflamming are soon exposed on a national level. What recourse is there at a bandit meet? The TCA can do something about it.
Elitist? So be it. I know what I'm getting, and happy to pay the price. I don't have the BEST trains or the RAREST trains, but I have knowledge and friends.
What price success?
Keep York private.
90-30653

[Anonymous]

The TCA is an excellent source of knowledge to newcomers in the hobby. With the recent advent of cheaper priced quality train sets tied into commercial films (Polar Express, Thomas, Harry Potter), allowing youngsters access to the wonders of Toytrains displayed at York might, in my opinion, spark more interest. What have they got to lose. The name of the club is TRain Collectors of America. Nowhere do I see the term elitism or keep little people and newcomers away from exposure to the mecca of train collectors.
Just my 2 cents!

[Anonymous]

Many TCA meets allow the public in a few hours after the members come in. A few TCA members probably joined only to go to York so they might leave. That could be offset by gains in membership from the general public.

[Anonymous]

Are some of us confusing TCA and the entire hobby. TCA membership may take a hit, but new interest in the hobby is a given.

[Anonymous]

It would help the hobby immensely. The so-called Train Collectors "Association" is anything but. This outfit considers itself above and beyond the masses of other model train clubs. I would be extremely surprised if the TCA would ever yield to outside influence to "open its doors" to the general public just to expand exposure to the hobby.

[MartyE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Santafekent

It doesn't matter anyway, the TCA is no longer relevant. I considered joining but could not find a valid reason to make the effort worthwhile for me. When the the existing members die off in the next 10 or 20 years, it will simply cease to exist.

You'll have to wait at least 40 more years before this existing member dies. I agree though that more needs to be done to let the average Joe into TCA events.

[Anonymous]

It doesn't matter anyway, the TCA is no longer relevant. I considered joining but could not find a valid reason to make the effort worthwhile for me. When the the existing members die off in the next 10 or 20 years, it will simply cease to exist.

[Richard A]

I agree with the two posts that comment on the difficulty of joining TCA. I have tried twice over the past two years using the process outlined on their web site and recommended by a local dealer, but have gotten zero response, one way or the other. Perhaps I couldn't pass their background search. That speeding ticket I got 40 years ago in college was paid!

I can understand the requirement of having 2 members recommend a potential new member, but when I see a dealer signing his name to the application of a complete stranger (a walk-in customer with big bucks), it makes me wonder in this day and age, why the antiquated process?

Having said this, I still see the value in having a "closed" meet. If TCA opened the doors to the general public, I'm not sure the mystique and prestige that currently exists would be maintined.

TCA, just join the 21st century and you'll be around a lot longer.

[Anonymous]

Phil:
Great post. As far as I'm concerned that Sponsorship thing is a bunch of elitist nosense. Some of the worst scoundrels in the hobby hide behind their TCA memberships.
BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[overkill-phil]

How about instead of opening the doors to the event, the TCA becomes easier to join? I have been involved with O-gauge trains my entire life and cannot joint TCA without jumping through hoops like having sponsors etc. Of course, I have yet to get a straight answer from the local TCA guys I have asked. The hobby may not grow by letting a bunch of tire kickers into the event, but why not make it easier for folks who have toy trains in their blood? It was easier to join my local shooting range than the TCA!
Just my 2 cents worth...

Phil

[Dave45681]

I made my vote the first "hurt". Hear me out.

I believe those predicting a drop in membership are correct. The drop in membership could go so far as to make York economically unfeasible for the TCA. I am sure somehow the membership dollars support events like York and conventions to an extent. I doubt the $8 for the door + dealers table fees would entirely support it. I could be wrong.

While we are at it, I suppose Dealers & other table holders would no longer need to be members either?

[Dave Farquhar]

It would hurt the TCA and I'm not sure how much it would help the hobby. As others have said, the public can already go to bandit meets and such. I've heard a small number of TCA members complain about the bandit meets draining off York.

TCA needs to look out for the hobby but needs to look out for itself too. I'm sure there are other things it can do that would help both it and the hobby. And that's assuming the TCA hasn't already done enough already. Ten years ago CTT was crediting the TCA with saving the hobby.

[pgatonna]

First point, the TCA's Eastern Division, who runs the meet, could choose to do so if they wished.

But, I don't see any advantage if they did so. There are already numerous open, commercial meets-shows already operating all over the East. Many of these are much closer to the major metropolitan areas than is York, PA. So the public already has many train shows to choose from. (And the "bandit meets" during York week are already open to anybody)

I travel from Arizona to go to York, and have been doing so for many years, but I doubt that the general public would do so. The only attraction of an open York would be for people living in the near vicinity. If they were that dedicated to train collecting, hopefully they would already be a TCA member.

Yes, it would hurt TCA. There is no way of proving the numbers, but I have heard many times over the years that the main reason some individuals join TCA is to be able to go to York. Drop the requirement, you will loose membership.

Peter

[Anonymous]

I think if the TCA decided to open the York meet to the general public it could be a very good thing, If they can maintain standards.

But, I doubt it will generate any new membership. Most of the general public who attend model train shows only do it as a family day trip. They have very little interest in getting involved with a hobby.
As for we of the toy train elk, many of our present TCA members may have little incentive to maintain exsisting membership if they can get into the fair grounds on a general admission.

So this move can have a two edge effect, on one hand it can expose more young families to the model train hobby and on the other hand it could reduce membership in the TCA, who can ill afford any such loss.

I guess new way of doing things coiuld be a good thing, you never know if an idea will work until you try it. But I hope they are careful not to kill a great tridition in an ill planed membership drive.

[Anonymous]

It would help the hobby and hurt the TCA.
BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[Roger Bielen]

It would hurt the TCA. Many join just for the opportunity to attend the exclusive meets.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I said help, but I seriously doubt that it will ever happen.

TCA has always had a rule of closed meets, it is a perk of membership. There is also a certain safety factor not having to deal with outsiders when it comes to matters of money and integrity. Anybody can host a train meet open to the public, but it takes an organization to have and enforce rules. TCA has built itself on its rules. It isn't hard up for members, there are new people discovering it all the time.

On the other hand maybe it wouldn't make any difference, because it is still only a local event as far as most people are concerned. If people don't live fairly close most don't go. Most of Pennsylvania is already in the TCA, and those that really want to go, already do.

[spodwo]

I have read so many times about people being turned away at the door because they didn't know it was a closed event. How terrible is that!