Pulling a Bunch of PS1 locos out of storage

[Charles S.]

Seayakbill

I use four of the Lionel 135 watt transformers to power my layout. One 135 watt transformer for each input on the MTH TIU, 2 variable inputs and 2 fixed inputs. I have not had any problems running early PS-1 locos through the TIU / DCS set-up powered by Lionel 135 watt transformers.

Wayne from J and W Electronics told me that the TMCC system will operate early PS1  and QSI equiped locomotives if one installs a capaciter accross between the (+) and (-) track feed wires. The capaciter must modulate the  wave pattern of the electrical pulses so as to flatten out the peaks (shark fin pattern) that cause the PS1 boards not to activate. Maybe your TIU/DCS has something inside to modulate the the wave pattern also. From reading the information on the TCP 300 and 400's those control units must have similiar capabilities, as Lionel states that they will operate PS1 locomotives.

Since I already own eight 135W bricks, eight Powermasters, two Cab 1's and have successfully used the system to operate PS1 equipment (with that goofy start-up procedure), I think that the next best move will be to install the BCR's in all of the old PS1's and install the capaciter's that Wayne mentioned to the track connections. It would hurt to try, and it may work fine for now.

I like the idea of the Z-4000's having a pure sine wave pattern, as it has to be easier on circuit boards. The amp and volt meters are also a nice addition, however the price is steep, and I already have a significant investment in proven equipment.  

[Seayakbill]

I use four of the Lionel 135 watt transformers to power my layout. One 135 watt transformer for each input on the MTH TIU, 2 variable inputs and 2 fixed inputs. I have not had any problems running early PS-1 locos through the TIU / DCS set-up powered by Lionel 135 watt transformers.

[Charles S.]

I found this 2000 post from MTH that addresses the issue. From the post it appears that only the early PS1 locomotives were affected. Unfortunatley for me, most of my PS1's are from 1994, 95, and 96. I stopped collecting in 96, and started packing in 98. At the time PS1 was introduced in 94, MTH recommended the ZW as the transformer of choice, as it was the only transformer at the time to produce a "pure sine wave pattern." The Z-4000 debut in 1998. I believe that the incompatability issue was with the bricks and also with the Powermasters, as I tried to power the Powermasters with a ZW and got the same issue as when they were powered with the 135W Powerhouse. It looks like I will either have to update all of those early edition PS1's or use a Z-4000 to power them. It still may be a better choice to pair 180W bricks with a TPC 400, and update the PS1 equiped locomotives with the Digital Dynamics PS1 to TMCC Command Cortrol. That upgrade is 119.95 per unit and preserves all PS1 functions. Thanks for your help. Its all a learning process, and I am starting to recall some of the things that I encountered back then.      "Early Proto-Sound Equipped Engine Compatibility With DCS"   Early Proto-Sound equipped engines (PS1) built in 1995 and 1996 suffered operating anomalies when used with "shark-fin" or phase control AC Waveforms found in the AC track voltage of what were then considered modern-type transformers. Older transformers, like Lionel's ZW model or MTH's then newly released Z-4000 employed a more "pure" sine wave form of current for which the PS1 system was specifically designed. Because these newer transformers could cause the sound system to act irregularly, MTH chose to disallow operation with any transformer type affected by the shark fin wave form rather than suffer complaints that the engine was defective. The affected transformer types were not listed in the approved transformer list found inside each engine produced during those years. Because so few of these "modern" transformers existed in the marketplace few consumers experienced the automatic transformer rejection. By 1997, software designers had pinpointed the shark-fin problem and resolved it through software and hardware changes in the PS1 circuit board. Consequently 1997 and later PS1 engines do not require the shark-fin transformer rejection needed in 1995 and 1996. Users of DCS may have experienced the shark-fin rejection when attempting to run those engines on a variable channel. This is because the DCS Track Interface Unit (or TIU) does not employ the more expensive pure sine wave form of current found in the MTH Z-4000 and instead relies on the less expensive phase control AC waveform. While the TIU waveform isn't as pronounced as that found in those early mid-1990's transformers, the PS1 software will still reject the current and not allow the locomotive to leave the RESET state. DCS users experiencing this phenomenon should follow either of the following procedures to allow their PS1 engines to operate with the DCS system. Z-4000 Remote Receiver Method With the PS1 engine on the track, employ the use of the MTH Z-4000 transformer for powering the variable or fixed channels of the TIU. Configure the TIU for a Z4K Channel. There are two ways to do this. Either step requires the use of the Z-4000 remote receiver (MTH part number 40-4002) Configure the Fixed channel by setting it up through the TIU setup menu as a Z4K channel. If using 2.1 software, you can configure a variable channel as a fixed channel as well. Once configured as a fixed channel via the TIU setup menu, the channel can be used as a Z4K channel. Give the fixed (or variable configured as fixed) Z4K channel full power from the Z-4000 transformer. Use the DCS remote to access the Z4K channels and adjust the track current appropriately to operate your PS1 locomotive. The shark-fin rejection will be disabled because the TIU is receiving full power from the Z-4000 transformer. The combination of full power with the use of the Z4K receiver eliminates the need for the TIU to regulate the current from the TIU to the track and thus does not "contaminate" the track current with a shark fin or phase control wave form. As a result, the track current isn't rejected by the PS1 hardware and the locomotive should operate normally. The engine will continue to function and respond to DCS commands as long as it is not shut down. When shut down, repeat the above procedure to get the engine to respond again. Sine-Wave Trick Method With the PS1 engine on the track, employ the use of an MTH Z-4000 transformer or any older Lionel ZW or KW type transformer as the power supply for the Variable Channels. Apply power only to the TIU via either the Fixed 1 or Auxiliary Power input. Do not apply power to the variable channel at this time. Scroll the variable track voltage up to 22 volts using the DCS remote. Now apply 8 - 10 volts of current from the transformer to the Variable Channel you wish to control. At this point you have tricked the TIU into thinking it is passing current straight to the track and the PS1 locomotive should start up. Press the red Direction button on the remote to allow the PS1 engine to leave Reset. Press DIR again to park the engine in neutral. Adjust the transformer throttle up to full voltage. And lower the DCS voltage setting down to the desired operating voltage the user wishes to apply to the engine. The engine will now continue to function and respond to DCS conventional commands as long as it is not shut down. When shut down, repeat the above procedure to get the engine to respond again.

Copyright 2000 - Proto-Sound 2.0 -M.T.H. Electric Trains Please direct questions and comments to: [e-mail]"

[dougdagrump]

Hmmm, that's kinda strange. Wonder if maybe it could be the Powermaster as opposed to the 135w Bricks, we use the 180 bricks w/TPC's for conventional w/no problems. Just checked an owner's manual for a Proto-1 engine of mine and they don't list the bricks, every other transformer Lionel made but not them.

I remember your start-up procedure from your earlier post, interesting but hey it works.  

[Charles S.]

Hi Doug, Thanks for the info! I did not know that the 180W Powerhouses were compatable. I have eight of the 135W Powerhouses, and they are not compatable. These are the original issues from 94'. The newer versions may be different?  On the old layout, I had all of the transformers phased. To get PS1 locomotives to operate with Lionel Train Master equipment, I would bring on the power with a ZW, wait until the sound system accepted the signal from the transformer. Then I would power up the Powerhouse/Powermaster pairs, dropping out the power from the ZW. Technically the tricked PS1 and QSI locos would run all day. It was not recommended by either manufacturer, but it worked, and I had no issues from it. Back then Lionel did not approve pairing Powerhouses and Powermasters, but now it looks like it is common to pair transformers.  No one knew how to do it back then, and the Z-4000 had not been introduced. Lionel and MTH both played the blame game. Operators were on our own with the then new PS1 and Train Master. Sounds like lots of things have changed.

You are right about the cost comparison. Using Lionel four 180W Powerhouses will costs about half of the price of the two Z 4000's.  

[dougdagrump]

Charles, Since you plan on using Powermasters as a transition to TPC's have you done a cost comparison of utilizing the 180W Lionel bricks instead of the Z4000. Fully compatible with PS-1 & 2.

Either way it sounds as though you are well on your way, congratulations.

[Charles S.]

Thanks for the feedback. I am planning on investing in two Z-4000's and just use the ZW's to power accessories. If I understand it correctly, the Z-4000's will power any three rail O guage locomotive ever built. I am thinking that maybe I can use the two Z-4000's to provide power to the eight Powermasters that I use paired on the four main lines, that way I can use the Cab 1's to remotely operate all of the trains in conventional mode.

Then later on as money permits, purchase two TPC-400's and install them on two of the main lines, eventually update the PS1 locomotives to the Digital Dynamics PS1 upgrade, making them fully compatable with TMCC, and Command Control ready. Then I would only be one step away from the Legacy system. How does that sound for a gameplan? Thanks to eveyone for your time, patience, and efforts.    

[Taranwanderer]

So far, you are on the right track with your plans for your mothballed PS-1s. The BCRs are an excellent product and Wayne at J&W is a stand-up guy, he won't steer you wrong. I might also add that the boards in these locos don't really play well with the voltage spikes that old Lionel ZWs/KWs have to offer at times, so I would highly advise adding transient voltage suppressors to your transformers to prevent frying your main boards. Good luck!

[Seayakbill]

 Sounds like you are very happy with the BCR's?

Yep, the BCR's are the perfect substitution for the MTH battery. I still run my PS-1 locos when the layout is in conventional mode as it is now. Some of my PS-1 locos are from the very early MTH releases and have a ton of hours logged, certainly have got my moneys worth of enjoyment out of them.

I have been experimenting with running Lionel Postwar on the same mainlines with MTH PS-2 locos at the same time using the DCS system and so far no problems.

[Charles S.]

Thanks Bill, I agree that the MTH PS1 locos are good runners. They are some of my favorites. Most of these were purchased between 1994 and 1997. When I packed them for storage I called MTH service, and they told me not to take the batteries out of them. Of course I had no idea that they would be stored 11 years. The plan was for two years of storage at the most. Sounds like you are very happy with the BCR's?

[Seayakbill]

Get the BCR's and you never have to mess with the batteries again. I replaced the batteries in all my PS-1 locos when they hit the 5 year mark and never have had any issues. PS-1 locos are very nice conventional locos with good sounds for that time period and super strong pullers.

[Charles S.]

After 11 years packed in their original boxes in anticipation of building a new layout, I have started to unpack my MTH PS1 equiped locomotives, get them checked out serviced and running. I feel like a dummy. The first few I checked, I was using the Lionel transformer that came with the grandkid's Thomas The Tank set, thinking that it would be sufficient to do the initial checks with. The Lionel and Williams trains worked perfectly, however each PS1 or QSI equiped locomotive just popped and cracked. Since these things have a tendency to scramble the programing if the battery is allowed to go dead, I assumed that I had a bunch of scrambled boards.

Well, here comes the dummy part. I found one of the ZW's, and used it to power all of the PS1 and QS1 equiped locos. They all worked as designed. The batteries are bad, and most will not hold a charge for more then a few seconds, however the locomotives power up, and are fully functioning.  The next step is to order BCR's from J and W Electronics, install them in the MTH and Weaver locomotives, and not have to deal with any more batteries. For temporary testing purposes, I placed a fresh 9 volt Duracell in the locomotives, and they work as designed. Since these locomotives have a charging circuit, I am not comfortable leaving a standard battery installed for permanant operations.