Was jury biased?

[KeithL]

Does anyone think that the location of the trial may have been a problem for Lionel? Detroit is a union town if there ever was one. Do you suppose it was difficult to get jurors without some negative feelings toward Lionel for closing its plant and moving its union jobs to Korea and China? Is it possible that--at some level--some jurors may have had a sense of "payback time?"

Keith

[nblum]

Anything's possible, but I'd say it's more likely that MTH's lawyers were simply better than Lionel's lawyers than that the jury was making the decision on unrelated issues. With the plethora of corporate malfeasance scandals, I'd guess that would be a bigger factor than Lionel, which is not a big factor in the Detroit economy, to say the least.

The bottom line to me is that the economic impact of any earlier production of a handful of articulated steamers seems to have been astonishingly overestimated by the jury for some reason. The notion that the economic problems of MTH during the period in question was caused by this affair makes no sense to me having experienced the market that occurred during that time period.

During 1997-2002, MTH was making , initially, PS1 locos with outmoded sound and electronics, and then PS2 locos with improved but still second rate sound and no command control capability (DCS not being anywhere to be seen). Lionel was making TMCC/RS locos that were simply clearly technically superior to the MTH product. Somehow Lionel's lawyers must have missed making that point or not convinced the jury of it.

[FJ and G]

IMHO, the jury was DEFINITELY NOT biased, despite each jurist receiving a free autographed MTH club tank car.

Dav

[ChiefEagles]

Yes, we have about worn this shoe out. [:D]

[Anonymous]

Bias always exists. Lionel probably thought the bias would be in their favor, as it was a "hometown" crowd. You see, Lionel really doesn't think that they did anything wrong in either sending all the work to China or in the MTH case. They are stupid. I have no better word for it.

As for the China deal, the workers played a large part in that decision. They wanted to be members of the UAW (Autoworkers union)!! They claimed that they made VEHICLES!! As such, [they] made outragous claims for higher pay! What could Lionel do? They could not make a profit if they had to pay people $36.00 an hour (OR SOME SUCH SUM---Just an example, I don't know how much it may have been[8D]

Now, the stuff is made in China and each person gets paid by the piece. I don't know what the amount is, but I have been told it's like 3 cents a piece.

[Anonymous]

Neil,

You are still worrying me, my friend. I have been reading the most recent lawsuit posts and, once again, this seems to be affecting you to a rather extreme degree. I have been keeping out of this for the most part. I have nothing to add from a legal information standpoint (I was not present in the courtroom, have no access to the documentation, testimony, etc). I do not technically work for either of the manufacturers, although I am part of a group that does demonstrations for MTH.

A couple of your comments did concern me enough to respond though:

" then PS2 locos with improved but still second rate sound and no command control capability (DCS not being anywhere to be seen)."

True, DCS was preceded by PS-2 locomotives by a long period of time, but second rate sound? This one is very subjective. PS-2 was not at the time, nor is it now "Second Rate Sound". In terms of actual sound quality, to many it would seem that the sound from both PS-2 and Lionel Railsounds varies to some degree from locomotive to locomotive (some TMCC's sound better than some PS-2's and vice versa, depending on which locomotive). Only now has Lionel corrected their "Cab Chatter" so that one can actually understand what is being said. Lionel still lacks the sound of running with the cylinder cocks open. MTH corrected my personal pet peive-(Lionel's insistance on two chuffs per wheel revolution) by creating adjustable chuff rate (true, one had to wait for DCS to be released in order to modify this-but the ability to do so was built in).

"Lionel was making TMCC/RS locos that were simply clearly technically superior to the MTH product."

Lionel's Odyssey speed control in some models was, at this time, still suffering from the "Ody-lurch" described in OGR and other publications (this continues in some modes to this day-notably the first run of the NYC S-1). MTH's PS-2 speed control worked correctly and simply in conventional mode, whereas Lionels needed to be "set" in conventional mode. Lionels' speed control was also occasinally subject to being locked at a very slow speed and having to be unlocked. Even today, one still cannot lash-up disimilar Odyssey equipped locomotives easily as they do not necessarily run at the same speed at the same throttle notch (PS-2's speed control is based on Scale Miles per hour-so disimilar locomotives can operate in a lash-up easily).

One could not (and still cannot) open the electro-couplers on TMCC locomotives in conventional mode by bell and whistle commands.

My new Lionel 3751, which is a beautiful device, will not run below 6 Scale miles per hour and leaps to that speed on the first throttle notch (using either a Cab 1 or a DCS Handheld. Modifying the "stall "and "momentum" settings does not correct this). My older PS2 Premier UP FEF will run start smoothly and run at 2 Scale Miles per hour. True, the 3751 sounds better, but it is several years newer. The 3751 looked ridiculous with those beautiful large scale drivers at only two chuffs per revolution. I had to modify it with a reed switch and magnets in order to get a correct four chuffs per revolution-a programmable chuff rate would have made life so much easier.

The two manufacturers are see-sawing back and forth trying to out perform each other. This is greatly to the advantage of all O gauge modelers. Both make excellent models, with, in my not-so-humble opinion, MTH in the technologial lead at the moment (granted-this is subjective-my opinion).


"Somehow Lionel's lawyers must have missed making that point or not convinced the jury of it."

Easy to see why...

If Lionel wronged MTH, MTH deserved to win. If Lionel did not wrong MTH, MTH deserved to loose. We do not have the information that was provided in the courtroom.

Like me, you are biased-we both show it with many of our posts (we just happen to be on opposite sides of the fence). Also like me, there is nothing that you can do about the court decision.

The jury has spoken. We can only wait for the rest of the legal process to play out.

[nblum]

In 1997-2000 when the locomotives under discussion in the trial were made, the Lionel locos contained TMCC/RS electronics that were indisputably superior in almost all respects to the MTH locos involved, which had PS1. Thus during the time period when the alleged misuse of MTH technology occurred, Lionel was the undisputed leader in technology. PS1 did not have command capability, required the troublesome battery and had distinctly inferior sounds. The Lionel lawyers would presumably have made these points, in vain, and I was merely reiterating them. I grant you the PS2 difference is less serious in 2000-2002, but the absence of ANY command control ability means that from 1997-2002 Lionel was still the technology leader, IMO, of course :). 2002-2004 is a period ending almost seven to eight years from the events in question, and the calculation, as you point out, is different after the introduction of DCS in 2002. But that is five full years after the events in question.

[spankybird]

Neil, I have to ask, What sound system does Lionel use in there HO??

[Anonymous]

I believe Lionel is using QSI sound technology in their HO offerings.

Tony

[spankybird]

Is not QSI the same ones that made PS1 boards for MTH?

[Anonymous]

Neil,

I give up. Lionel will always be superior and will always be right in your mind. That is fine.

I believe that you are one of those who had (on the other forum) quoted Lionel that the "command" market was not that big (no more than 25%) and therefore not that much of an issue at the time. Aside from the electronics issue, MTH's designing/casting/ modelmaking technology was evidently superior at the time, as that is the crux of the lawsuit (missing/stolen designs).

Don't let this take over your life-I am suspicious that it is already too late.

Good Luck.

[nblum]

RAK......Not to worry, nothing is taking over my life except the aging process :).

All the discussion I have heard suggests that the design material misappropriation in question was not the externals (diecasting) but the drive trains. I have no idea whether the diecasting on Lionel articulated steamers was superior or inferior to MTH's. In any case, that was not the crux of the case. You may well be right that the MTH Allegheny was nicer than the Lionel externally--beats me. I have no idea whether the drive trains on Lionel's or MTH's locos were superior as I don't own any articulated steamers and have next to no technical expertise in that area.

Obviously the jury, listening to both side's expert testimony and attorneys felt that Korea Brass's access to this Samhongsa/MTH information provided an unfair advantage. It baffles me that a jury could be led to believe that MTH's dramatic drop in sales in the 1997-2002 period could be primarily due to unfair competition from Lionel. That's the only and critical point I was making. Your mileage will apparently vary.

[nblum]

The sound and DCC command control system in Lionel's HO locos is said to be the same as those in the Broadway Limited's HO locos, a new system manufactured by QSI. It is certainly not the same QSI system as PS1 from what I know. These are the same companies (BLI/QSI) that MTH is currently suing for patent infringement.

[spankybird]

So what am I missing here, Niel, the PS1 boards that

QUOTE: "had distinctly inferior sounds"

was made by QSI and the Lionel being

QUOTE: ” technically superior”

is using the same company that you were just bashing. Is that how leaders work[?]

[nblum]

QSI has one of the best sound systems in HO if you've not heard them. They're about a decade later in design than the PS1 used in MTH's locos in the 1990s that was also designed by QSI and modified according to MTH's desires. QSI has obviously made some progress in speaker enclosure design as well. Railsounds is certainly better yet, but the boards and speakers are too big to fit into HO locomotives and tenders. That's presumably why Lionel chose to use the QSI system. It's also DCC compliant, unlike TMCC. As you know this is important in HO.

[spankybird]

Neil, I really have to agree with RAK 402.

You are in your own little world. This is 2004 and a decade is 10 years, that would make it 1994 not 1990. PS1 didn’t show up in MTH catalogs until 1994 – 1995.

So what color is the sky in your world. I really hope you enjoy it.

Why not accept what has happened and start talking about trains. Maybe even help some of our form members by answering some of their questions.

LET TALK TRAINS

and have fun.[:D][:D][:D][:D]

[ChiefEagles]

Tom, ever heard the old saying, "He'll argue with the post, pull it up and argue with the hole"? [;)]

[nblum]

You fellows through with your insulting posts?

I'll conclude this one way exchange of information by pointing out that I did not write "1990." I wrote "1990s."

PS1 was indeed MTH's less expensive version of the sound and control system QSI had introduced during that period. QSI said MTH didn't want to pay the cost of the full blown QSI system so they cheapened it to make PS1.

The current QSI HO sound system is indeed about a decade "newer" than the original QSI and PS1 systems. For one thing, it is a true command control system, unlike PS1.

[spodwo]

Impossible to measure if the jury was biased. We don't know them, we don't know how the companies were painted and frankly with a Lionel employee [Gruppa] having emails about this mess - it just became a way to stick it to Lionel. I think, as others have stated, that Lionel was the big company {Enron} and Mike's Train House as the small guy (who started in the basement/garage/attic/whatever}. On the other hand - who can chime in on jury selection? Don't the lawyers get to accept and reject jurors before the trial starts to insure that there is no "pre Bias"? In theory - the jury should start as a clean slate. Chime in...dunno about cases like this.

??

Nothing else matters now other than what the next round will bring.

[spankybird]

Yes spodwo,

I am sure, as with all jury trials, that each side was allow to interview the juriors and accept and reject them.

And Neil, we aren’t insulting you, just that you only see Lionel as Great and can do no wrong. Get a Life.

As others have said, they are tired of law suit talk. They want to talk trains. When are you going to join in?

[nblum]

Telling someone to get a life is insulting. It certainly has nothing to do with talking about trains. Instructing people what to talk about is both arrogant and rude. Who are you that you should determine what is discussed on a train forum? The topic of this thread is about the industry and the hobby. If you're not interested, just don't read it.

Most of the comments I've made are based upon personal experience in the hobby for the last 15 or so years, purchasing products from all the major manufacturers and active involvement in the hobby. If you have factual information to dispute my points, by all means present your point of view. But don't expect me or anyone else to be bullied into talking about what you think is appropriate or express opinions that necessarily agree with your ideas just because you huff and puff the longest and loudest.

[eZAK]

spanky,
If you want to talk trains then why do you keep replying to this thread?

RAK & spanky,
You are indeed talking down to nblum!
Both of you have critizied this fellow because he has an opinion that differs from yours.

Here are some old phazes that need to be repeated (For Humor Only)
Opinions are like A**-holes every one has one and some are one!
If you don't have any thing nice to say, Don't say anything

Jury Duty
That is exactly what it is! Your duty
Potential jurors are selected from a pool by the lawers AND the judge.
It would be very hard to get a biased jury in your favor.
More than likely if you were a member of a union, had anything to do trains or shipping,
and/or where involved in the importation biz in any way you would have been dismissed.

Been there, done that! I have served on three juries.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Neil; his points were objective and reasonable. Why all the rude comments? In the beginnning Lionel did have the superior control system and the better sounds. DCS didn't appear until 2002. TMCC was around in 1995 (looks like nine-year difference).

Is DCS better? Sure seems that way at least in terms of capability. I don't know as I only run TMCC.

I also agree with Neil in that the award does seem rather high. Especially when only a few engines were copied. But I wasn't there to hear the evidence. Maybe we have all been grossly underestimating the amount of sales the big 'two' are realizing. Perhaps each 'big' engine does sell 2 or 3 thousand copies, which would make the award more reasonable.

[spankybird]

Neil, your are correct.
[B)]

I am Sorry

[B)]

I have no right to ask you to use your knowledge of Lionel to help anyone. Maybe your Life is to fell that Lionel is great and all other are [censored]

I was just hoping you could use your great knowledge of Lionel to help some of our form member.

I am Sorry

[D)]
I had no right to ask that.

[Bob Keller]

I think we need to wrap this thread up, too. we don't need any fist fights or name calling over opinions. The next stop on this ride is the judge's ruling on the award, so there will be another chance to thra***his all out again...

CTT will be obtaining a copy of the transcript of the trial that hopefully will clarify some of the issues.

[nblum]

Apology accepted.

Please be reassured that when someone has a question I think I can help with, I'm on it like maple syrup on a stack of hot cakes.

[eZAK]

Neil,
You need one more post for another star!
Make it a good one!