Hello, I have inherited some American Flyer gear and need help getting it running. I have a 4-8-4 #336 and a 4-4-0 Franklin #21088. I have a 12B transformer. The locos are freshly cleaned, lubed, and tested by a pro. The transformer is putting out variable 0 to 15 AC volts and the voltage is reaching the track. The 4-4-0 does not work at all, no hint of juice being received. The 4-8-4 is mostly not working in a random-appearing way. By "mostly working" I mean the #336 clicks once in a while, and even ran for a moment once, I have been pressing the reverse button on the transformer, and that seems to illicit the response, sometimes.
A couple questions:
- The 4-8-4 has a lever in the tender that appears to be an RC switch. It feels like two-position as opposed to four. There is no indication which way is "on" for the switch. How does this thing work?
- I still need to clean the rails for sure, but like I said, good juice is getting to the rails, and I tried attaching alligator clips direclty to the loco wheels and that did not work. Should I clean the rails with fine grit sandpaper on a dremel at modest speeds, is that acceptible?
A couple other questions:
- The Franklin appears to have no remote control switch, is that correct? Although there is some electronics module hanging down below the tender bottom, but no switch apparent.
- Neither unit has any way to turn the smoke unit "off." I read somewhere you should turn it off if running without smoke fluid, but I see no way to do that.
Thanks in advance for your help. I have two preschool boys hanging over my shoulder asking when the train will run.
It sounds to me like you are dealing with the classic "malfunctioning reverse unit" syndrome. Scroll down a bit and read the thread entitled American Flyer - E Unit Problem and you will find a comprehsive discussion of many of the same issues you are describing. Including a description of how to build a jumper device that allows you to bypass the tender unit and test the motor directly.
The switch under the tender is a mechanical linkage that allows you to disengage the soleniod in the reverse unit, forcing the loco to run in only one direction. It doesn't actually bypass the unit however, so it won't do you any good if the electrical contacts are shot.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
Ok, the 4-8-4 runs fine now. Not sure what was the issue Here's my question on that:
The RC switch: in one position, it responds to stopping the throttle, for each "stop:, it goes: it goes forward, then rolls forward a few inches and stops, then goes backwards, then rolls backwards a few icnhes and stops, then repeat cycle. When the RC switch is the otherway, it only goes forward. Ok. (When people say four position, are they referring to the function, not the swtich?)
What does the reverse switch on the 12B transformer do? I canot see that mine does anything, maybe it broken.
The franklin still is inoperative. I may need to go back to the repair guy. Am I missing something, is it DC powered? Is there a switch on it I am missing?
stebbycentral It sounds to me like you are dealing with the classic "malfunctioning reverse unit" syndrome. Scroll down a bit and read the thread entitled American Flyer - E Unit Problem and you will find a comprehsive discussion of many of the same issues you are describing. Including a description of how to build a jumper device that allows you to bypass the tender unit and test the motor directly. The switch under the tender is a mechanical linkage that allows you to disengage the soleniod in the reverse unit, forcing the loco to run in only one direction. It doesn't actually bypass the unit however, so it won't do you any good if the electrical contacts are shot.
Thank you, I read that thread once and it kind of went over my head, I will re-read it now that I am getting the hang of the reverse unit.
Timboy Hi! 4-8-4: The switch is a lever. It is used to either lock or unlock the mechanical reverse unit in the tender in the desired position - usually forward. The lever can be moved from side to side for that function. I think you will just have to play with it to discover how it works. It sends a voltage from the track to the motor and controls the direction that the loco travels. It is a four-position reverse unit, so when you press the reversing button on the transformer or move the transformer throttle from running-speed voltage to 0 volts, it will cycle as follows: neutral-forward-neutral-reverse. Neutral means the loco is not moving. Attaching alligatoor clips directly to the loco wheels will not do a thing. The voltage from the track is taken up through the metal wheels on the tender. Notice that there is one pair of metal wheels on one side and one pair on the other. The front pair usually take up the voltage from the variable post of the transformer connected to that rail and the rear set then returns a theoretcial 0 volts back through the other rail to the base post of the transformer. Make sure the tender wheels are bright and shiny clean by cleaning with an ink eraser or a little lighter fluid or acetone on a cloth or Q-tip. Don't get any of that cleaner on the plastic wheels paint or it will harm them. A Dremel tool with a wire wheel can be used to clean tender wheels, but do it away from the track so pieces of the wire wheel don't find themselves getting picked up by the electro-magnet in the loco open-frame motor. Clean the track with a cloth the same way as you may have cleaned the wheels. The original factory method of track cleaning was with kerosene, but most any solvent - except gasoline - will do. Only use a very fine grit Emory cloth if there is actual corrosion. Franklin: That "module" may be the 2-position reverse unit. I think some of them had those located there and some had them on the back of their open-frame motor on the loco. It works basically the same as the 4-8-4 reverse unit, but instead of neutral-forward-neutral-reverse, the Franklin is forward-reverse. The smoke box is always hard-wired, so you can not turn it off. Contact Doug Peck at Portlines Hobbies and he can send you a bottle of smoke fluid. You may get other responses from this list and I hope you do. Someone else may have already responded while I was composing this response. Others may have other pet ways to care and feed their trains. Good luck!
Hi!
4-8-4: The switch is a lever. It is used to either lock or unlock the mechanical reverse unit in the tender in the desired position - usually forward. The lever can be moved from side to side for that function. I think you will just have to play with it to discover how it works. It sends a voltage from the track to the motor and controls the direction that the loco travels. It is a four-position reverse unit, so when you press the reversing button on the transformer or move the transformer throttle from running-speed voltage to 0 volts, it will cycle as follows: neutral-forward-neutral-reverse. Neutral means the loco is not moving.
Attaching alligatoor clips directly to the loco wheels will not do a thing. The voltage from the track is taken up through the metal wheels on the tender. Notice that there is one pair of metal wheels on one side and one pair on the other. The front pair usually take up the voltage from the variable post of the transformer connected to that rail and the rear set then returns a theoretcial 0 volts back through the other rail to the base post of the transformer. Make sure the tender wheels are bright and shiny clean by cleaning with an ink eraser or a little lighter fluid or acetone on a cloth or Q-tip. Don't get any of that cleaner on the plastic wheels paint or it will harm them. A Dremel tool with a wire wheel can be used to clean tender wheels, but do it away from the track so pieces of the wire wheel don't find themselves getting picked up by the electro-magnet in the loco open-frame motor.
Clean the track with a cloth the same way as you may have cleaned the wheels. The original factory method of track cleaning was with kerosene, but most any solvent - except gasoline - will do. Only use a very fine grit Emory cloth if there is actual corrosion.
Franklin: That "module" may be the 2-position reverse unit. I think some of them had those located there and some had them on the back of their open-frame motor on the loco. It works basically the same as the 4-8-4 reverse unit, but instead of neutral-forward-neutral-reverse, the Franklin is forward-reverse.
The smoke box is always hard-wired, so you can not turn it off. Contact Doug Peck at Portlines Hobbies and he can send you a bottle of smoke fluid.
You may get other responses from this list and I hope you do. Someone else may have already responded while I was composing this response. Others may have other pet ways to care and feed their trains.
Good luck!
Thanks. I am getting the hang of the reverse on the Northern. But it is not true neutral, it actually rolls a few inches, then stops when in neutral mode
I think the Franklin is not working. I was attaching the clips to the contact wheels and got nothing.
If the unit under the Frankling tender is an RC switch, there is no apparent toggle sticking out to move, maybe it is broken off? I can see a rocker looking thing that I could maybe poke a small screwdriver in to change postion.
I also think the reverse buttton on the transformer is broken. Is that likely to be the switch itself or something else in the guts? Do you know where I can get a replacement switch?
I'm getting closer.....
McMike The RC switch: in one position, it responds to stopping the throttle, for each "stop:, it goes: it goes forward, then rolls forward a few inches and stops, then goes backwards, then rolls backwards a few icnhes and stops, then repeat cycle. When the RC switch is the otherway, it only goes forward. Ok. (When people say four position, are they referring to the function, not the swtich?)
It may be that the cam action on your reverse unit is not working properly. Ordinarily when the reverse unit cycles to neutral, there should be no electrical contact and the engine should not move at all. It sounds like your unit is not fully cycling, leading to a situation where the electrical contacts are still partially touching when the drum stops rotating. They only fully disengage when the engine lurches forward or back. You could have a weak soleniod, or a wornout drum assembly. Otherwise the operation you describe is normal. With the RC switch set to disengage the solenoid, the engine only moves in one direction, no matter how many times you cycle the power.
The reverse unit on the Franklin is in the tender. It is a two cycle as it has no neutral. The silver bracket that goes across the bottom with two small "wings" pushes up and down. Up is locked in the current direction and down is allowing it to cycle.
Jim
The reverse buttion on the transformer simply interupts the current flow to cycle the reverse unit.
Clean the track with a scotch brite pad. Do NOT use steel wool.
Sorry for the multiple posts. I'd read then think of an answer.
I just looked up a 12B transformer and I do not think you have a reverse swith. There is an on-off switch and a reset button for the internal circuit breaker. Unless you have had a short circuit, from a derailment or a screw driver layed out across the rails, you shouldn't have to use this switch. There are also red and green lights, red would indicate you have had a short, and green indicates power on. Keep at it, it sounds like you are making progress!!
George
Thanks, but I definitely have the switch labeled "reverse switch" on the transformer. Now that I understand what it is supposed to do - interrupt the current - I am pretty sure it is malfunctioning intermittently (it only works sometimes, sometimes it does work). But maybe the problem is in the RC unit that is intermittent. I will get the transformer looked at by a pro. But first I will test it on the bench. I also think the red light is burnt out, so I will replace that.
Yes, in fact I am pretty sure the RC unit in the Northern is failing, but intermittently. Sometimes it works as intended, sometimes not at all.
Question: what is the proper cycle for resetting the circuit breaker? Do I need to power off first? Pause for a minute?
I never would have guessed that was the switch. Perhaps it was in a half-way position.
Question: should the silver bracket move the plastic rocker that I can see? When I move the bracket up and down, there is no other discernable activity in the module. However, I can move the plastic rocker back and forth using a small screwdriver.
I think we are getting close with the Franklin. Sometimes it "clicks" in response to ppower, sometimes not. I will fiddle with the RC unit some more.
Thanks.
Yes, I think the RC unit on the Northern is malfunctioning. Sometimes it works like it is supposed to, other times it does not.
Should it matter which rail is the "base post" rail versus which way the loco is pointed when set on the track?
It should work any way you set it up, right? It simply changes which way is "forward", right?
Nope, does not matter thanks to the miracle of AC....
On the 336, the pawl may be sticking not allowing the drum to rotate and switch directions. The sticking pawl is fixable. First try cleaning it, then lubing it. CRC-5-56 or similar contact cleaner and a flux brush will do a good job of cleaning.
Make sure the lockout lever is positioned to let the coil trip the lever. After cleaning and lubing the moving parts work the lever by hand several times to allow the cleaner and lube get into all the moving parts. If the pawl is still sticking make sure there is not a burr or notch worn into the E-unit frame where the little brass “L” shaped piece makes contact, if there is use a small file to smooth the edge. Sometimes as a last resort, ever so gently bend the brass “L” shaped part so less surface area is coming in contact with the e-unit frame.
Once the e-unit is cycling, if the current is not getting to the loco, first look at the fingers on the e-unit where they contact the drum. It should be a sliding contact configuration. All four fingers must make contact with the drum.
On the Franklin, the silver piece will slide up and down and the plastic will move also. If you look closely you will see a connecting rod that transfers the lever position.
I figued that would be the case. But there is so much emphasis in any instructions placed on the "base" post versus the variable post... thought maybe there was some electronic magic I might be unaware of.
Sounds like the 336 is going back to the pro.
On the Franklin, I see that the silver lever is not moving the plastic rocker. So the connecting rod must be not connected. Maybe I'll just take this back to the pro too.
I tested the transformer and noted three interesting things:
(1) The reverse switch does not interrupt the current as much as it cuts the current in half. So, it does not get near zero when the throttle is set at higher speeds. Is this the correct function?
(2) Both variable post pairs (both A&B) "leak" current when the throttle is set to "stop." They leak about 0.5 volts even when the transformer is turned off (but plugged in), and they leak 1.0 volts when the power is on but the throttle is set to stop.
(3) There is not much smooth voltage increase with the throttle increase: it jumps from about 2 volts to 7 volts, and then smooths out as it increases the rest of the way to its maximum (which is 17 volts as opposed to 15).
I have tested the unit for continuity problems in terms of current leakage where it shouldn't be present and all seems sound that way (besides the .5 volts leaking to the variable posts when the transormer is turned off..
Is this all normal? Thanks.
There doesn't seem to be a "reverse" switch on the 12B. What are you pressing? If it's the reset button for the circuit breaker, that might open the breaker; but it would leave the lamp in series with the transformer. That might explain what you are seeing.
You talk about leaking current, but then give voltage numbers. What are you measuring and how are you measuring it? What kind of meter, connected how, and with what else connected to the transformer?
Bob Nelson
Regarding the transformer: short of posting a photo, you will have to take my word that the transformer is an AF model #12B (it says so on the face plate) and has both a "reverse" switch and a "reset" button, along with an on-off switch, two lamps, and two power levers.
Try this photo: http://www.geocities.com/theupstairstrain/infrastructure_Transformers2.html
Regarding "current": Oopsie, I was misusing that term. In all cases, I was referring to volt testing (not amps) using a basic multimeter set to AC voltage. The operating output was tested (and "leaking" discovered) by plugging the transformer in and attaching the meter leads to the appropriate posts with nothing else attached. The "leaking" refers to voltage readings that came from the variable posts when the transformer was either plugged in but turned off, or turned on but with the throttle set to stop. I would expect a reading of zero when the throttle was turned to stop, particularly when the transformer itself was turned off. But maybe the presence of .5 or 1.0 volts at the posts is not unusual even when turned off.
I did also safety-test the transformer using the meter's continuity function, using these instructions: http://www.portlines.com/portlinesclinic6.htm
What do you know, there are two versions of the 12B. Here is the picture that I found:
What kind of meter were you using?
What do you read if you plug it in, turn the power switch off, and set the controls halfway up?
I don't remember seeing this version either. Pretty neat.
Mcmike,
Hi, sorry about the bad information I gave you regarding the 12B, my books only showed the one without he reverse switch. But many of us have learned that there is a 12B made with a reverse switch.
Happy rails,
Considering all of my recent difficulties with the reversing unit on both my steam engine and my diesel, I have to say that the reversing unit is the Achilles Heel of the American Flyer electrical system.
The problems described by the author of this thread are remarkably similar to the problems I faced with the reversing units on my two engines.
Knowing nothing more about his 12B transformer than what is being reported here, i would conclude that there is nothing wrong with the transformer but, rather, something is wrong with the reversing unit.
The first thing I had to do was lubricate and clean the pawl, then replace the upper and lower finger boards, then tighten the metal tabs that hold then finger boards in place.
I am still experiencing intermittent failures of the reversing unit to cycle properly into the forward position. Close inspection of the reversing unit leads me to believe that the pawl still sticks on occasion or at least fails to engage the "clutch" (or gear) and turn the drum.
If I could start over, I would have replaced the reversing unit altogether or maybe purchase a Dallee Electronic E-Unit" (sorry Timboy, you asked us to cease and desist with that term, but that is what Dallee calls it).
As I say, I consider the reversing unit as the Achilles Heel of American Flyer.
Rich
Alton Junction
servoguyIf it is similar to the E relays on Lionel engines, you can usually free it up with a shot of WD-40. Wipe off any excess before you apply power. Bruce Baker
Bruce,
I agree that a lubricant like WD-40 or something similar will free up the pawl. But, sometimes, with age, the entire linkage mechanism that controls the pawl seems to lose its firmness, or so it seems. In my case, while the pawl and its linkage seems to move freely, the pawl does seem to engage the gear firmly every time in order to rotate the drum.
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