I just got a new set of fingers for the e-unit and installed them on the e-unit in the tender of my American Flyer #312 steam engine.
At first, everything seemed to work fine, but I noticed that the engine would abruptly stop and then go into reverse. Initially, I thought the track was at fault because it seemed to stall at the same spot. Each time that I would reset the transformer, it would cycle back to forward and run a litte before stopping and going into reverse again.
So, I took the engine and tender off the track, played witht the e-unit a little, making sure that everything was tight, and then put it back on the track. Ever since, I can get the engine to run in reverse, but not forward. All of the connections appear to be tight and the fingers seem to be sitting firmly on the drum. When the engine runs in reverse, it is flawless, never stops. When I cycle the e-unit to forward, it clicks but the engine does not move and the headlight does not come on. So, the 4 cycles are neutral, nothing, neutral, forward.
Is it one of the fingers, the drum, the wiring? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Rich
Alton Junction
Oops, I had a typo in the initial message. It should have read: So, the 4 cycles are neutral, nothing, neutral, reverse.
I have the same problem with my locomotive, except that it only runs forward. I'm leaving it well enough alone for now.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
Timboy Ok. First, I'm going to nit-pick because it's a pet grudge of mine. Although lots of people refer to the American Flyer mechanical reverse unit as an eunit - that is a misnomer and a Lionel term. American Flyer trains use a mechanical reverse unit. Stepping down off soapbox now to give you some things to check. Apparently, track voltage is not reaching the loco when the reverse unit is in a certain position. Several things to check. First; make sure it actually IS the reverse unit at fault. Do that by disconnecting the tender and jumping the ports on the jack panel of the loco. Jump port #2 with port #3 (two inside ports). Feed your transformer leads to port #1 and port #4 (two outside ports). The loco should run in either forward or reverse. You can wire the male part of a jack panel as a tester for future use. If you do, use a red wire on port #1 and a black wire on port #4. That way, you can first check for forward by putting the red lead on the variable post and the black lead on the base post. Swap them to test for reverse. Let's assume the loco works just fine. Second; make sure that the fingers are actually making solid contact with the drum. I know you said they were, but sometimes it looks like they are, but they actually are not or not enough to make good electrical contact. The trick is to have the fingers make solid contact, but not SO solid that they impede the drum from revolving. Third; make sure that the fingers are not slightly out of alignment so as to miss the metal parts of the drum. The second and third things are really two different issues. It is very unusual for a four-position reverse unit to slam directly into reverse from forward. I would expect that of a 2-position reverse unit as found in the Franklin. Fourthly; make sure the wires are soldered on their contact points securely. I don't think that is the problem here, because it does get electricity for reverse. Fifth; make sure that the little contact knobs on the reverse unit fingers are not worn through. If they are, a dab of solder will fill and fix them. Sight unseen, my best guess is #3. They may be contacting the metal parts of the drum for reverse, but not for forward. Hope this helps. Let us know how you make out or if none of the above works for you.
Ok. First, I'm going to nit-pick because it's a pet grudge of mine. Although lots of people refer to the American Flyer mechanical reverse unit as an eunit - that is a misnomer and a Lionel term. American Flyer trains use a mechanical reverse unit. Stepping down off soapbox now to give you some things to check. Apparently, track voltage is not reaching the loco when the reverse unit is in a certain position. Several things to check. First; make sure it actually IS the reverse unit at fault. Do that by disconnecting the tender and jumping the ports on the jack panel of the loco. Jump port #2 with port #3 (two inside ports). Feed your transformer leads to port #1 and port #4 (two outside ports). The loco should run in either forward or reverse. You can wire the male part of a jack panel as a tester for future use. If you do, use a red wire on port #1 and a black wire on port #4. That way, you can first check for forward by putting the red lead on the variable post and the black lead on the base post. Swap them to test for reverse. Let's assume the loco works just fine. Second; make sure that the fingers are actually making solid contact with the drum. I know you said they were, but sometimes it looks like they are, but they actually are not or not enough to make good electrical contact. The trick is to have the fingers make solid contact, but not SO solid that they impede the drum from revolving. Third; make sure that the fingers are not slightly out of alignment so as to miss the metal parts of the drum. The second and third things are really two different issues. It is very unusual for a four-position reverse unit to slam directly into reverse from forward. I would expect that of a 2-position reverse unit as found in the Franklin. Fourthly; make sure the wires are soldered on their contact points securely. I don't think that is the problem here, because it does get electricity for reverse. Fifth; make sure that the little contact knobs on the reverse unit fingers are not worn through. If they are, a dab of solder will fill and fix them. Sight unseen, my best guess is #3. They may be contacting the metal parts of the drum for reverse, but not for forward. Hope this helps. Let us know how you make out or if none of the above works for you.
Tim,
OK, after dinner, I am going to go down to the basement and try all of those suggestions. I appreciate the help.
As far as your nitpick goes :), I tried to sound cool by calling it an e-unit because back in January when I unboxed my old American Flyers after 40 years in storage, I didn't even know what the reversing unit was. After a bit of research and a lot of help on this forum, I now know just enough to be dangerous. I will no longer refer to it as an e-unit !!!
I will report back after I work my way through your suggestions. I really appreciate the help.
Didn't you mean to ask for proof that it was ever called an e-unit? Every mention in my K-Line American-Flyer service manual calls it something else. Usually it is "Remote Control Unit", but sometimes "Remote Control Assembly", "R.C Unit", or just "Remote Control", and once "Remoct Control" (for the 21088 and 21089).
I have always tried to avoid using the term "e-unit" for Flyer; but I wouldn't be surprised if I slipped once or twice. I have a few of them on hand, for fitting into tight spaces in O-gauge trains, like a certain very small ETS diesel. But I've never put one into a Lionel--the transplant would probably be rejected. I think the Flyer design is better than Lionel's, using only 4 fingers instead of 6, to do the same job.
Bob Nelson
Well, Tim, you were wrong. It was not #3, it was #2.
As you know, the fingers boards are secured by twisting the metal tabs that hold the boards in place. When I installed the finger boards, I apparently did not twist the tabs enough. The contact points of the fingers seemed to sitting firmly on the drum, but when I inspected them more closely and applied light pressure to the lower fingers assembly, the engine would take off. So, I twisted the metal tabs a little more, the boards fit a little more snugly, problem solved.
Now, I am experiencing a different problem which I have described in a separate thread related to electrical contact between the tracks.
Thanks for all your help.
Rich, Check the tension on the fingers on the drum. It is not uncommon to have a newly installed set to be out a bit. If you have a finger that looks a little different pull off that board and look at the board from the side. The fingers should have about a 10 degree angle from the neutral plane of the board toward the drum. Did you clean the drum? There may be some dirt on part of the drum. Let me know how this works out.
Here is a picture of the jumper that is talked about above
Jim
Sturgeon-Phish Rich, Check the tension on the fingers on the drum. It is not uncommon to have a newly installed set to be out a bit. If you have a finger that looks a little different pull off that board and look at the board from the side. The fingers should have about a 10 degree angle from the neutral plane of the board toward the drum. Did you clean the drum? There may be some dirt on part of the drum. Let me know how this works out. Here is a picture of the jumper that is talked about above Jim
Jim,
Indeed it was the tension of the finger board, or should I say the lack of tension. Twisting the metal tabs a little more did the trick.
Hi,
In reading timboy's comments I've found it very true...I'm new to fixing vintage Flyer S gauge but have worked on tons of postwar Lionel. The Flyer stuff is quite finicky by comparison my short experience, but I do love that Flyer "look."
That being said, am I correct in understanding the picture of the jumper provided above can be used to bypass a Flyer reversing unit and test the motor directly? Like I said just getting used to these engines and the signal flow is not as straightforward to me.
Thanks!
Mr. S. Hi, In reading timboy's comments I've found it very true...I'm new to fixing vintage Flyer S gauge but have worked on tons of postwar Lionel. The Flyer stuff is quite finicky by comparison my short experience, but I do love that Flyer "look." That being said, am I correct in understanding the picture of the jumper provided above can be used to bypass a Flyer reversing unit and test the motor directly? Like I said just getting used to these engines and the signal flow is not as straightforward to me. Thanks!
I am the last guy who should be responding to your question since I am still in the learning process and, as a result, far from being even remotely considered an expert. However, from my personal experience, thanks to the fellas on this forum, I can assure you that the jumper can be used to bypass the reversing unit and test the motor directly. I have done it myself. In fact, as it was first explained to me, there are four ways to wire the jumper.
The method shown in the photo will make the motor go forward. So will placing a jumper to connect the outer two positions while wiring the inner two positions to the positive and negative sides of the power source. To reverse the motor, you can place a jumper between the two positions on the left side while wiring the two positions on the right side to the positive and negative sides of the power source. You can also reverse the motor by placing a jumper between the two positions on the right side while wiring the two positions on the left side to the positive and negative sides of the power source.
What I love about Jim's photo is the fact that a few scraps of heavier gauge copper wire can be used as the jumpers. When I first tested my American Flyer motor on my steam engine, I was using alligator clips which were tough to work with since they kept falling off the jack panel. Jim's method is a lot more reliable and easier to use.
It works real well for those with the four plug jack.
I guess I would be interested in a diagram of your tester...I'm going to check your blog out right now. Thanks once again from a newbie "Flyer guy!"
Maybe you could just post it on your blog.
Timboy A long time ago, I developed a loco tester using a four-prong jack panel, a DPDT knife switch (or toggle switch) and a cradle I made for the loco. Here is how I did it: I nailed three pieces of wood together to form a trough to hold the loco and covered it with an old terry towel. Two alligator clips on wires attach to a transformer, one on the variable post and one on the base post.The other ends of the wires are attached to the terminals at one end of a DPDT switch.Wires from a four-prong male plug attach to the terminals at the middle and other end of a DPDT switch as follows: a field wire on one side and a brush wire in the middle of the same side; the other field wire to the other side and the other brush wire to the other middle.The four-pronged plug attaches to the loco jack panel (after removing the tender).The DPDT switch is cross-wired underneath and is used to test the loco motor in forward and reverse.If the loco runs okay, then I know the problem is with the reverse unit in the tender.Caution; don't leave the switch in the "up" or "center" position. Have it thrown (or toggled) to one side or the other and quickly throw it back and forth when testing. You don't want to have current running only through the field and not the brushes at the same time or you may burn out the field. I don't have a pic of this tester and I no longer even have that tester, but if there is interest in it, I would be happy to re-create it and post a pic. I know a pic is worth 1K words. There are more repair tips on my blog. There is also some humor. If you don't like the humor, or find it offensive, then just skip those posts and look for the informational posts.http://bigbadtimboy.blogspot.com/
A long time ago, I developed a loco tester using a four-prong jack panel, a DPDT knife switch (or toggle switch) and a cradle I made for the loco. Here is how I did it:
I nailed three pieces of wood together to form a trough to hold the loco and covered it with an old terry towel.
Two alligator clips on wires attach to a transformer, one on the variable post and one on the base post.The other ends of the wires are attached to the terminals at one end of a DPDT switch.Wires from a four-prong male plug attach to the terminals at the middle and other end of a DPDT switch as follows: a field wire on one side and a brush wire in the middle of the same side; the other field wire to the other side and the other brush wire to the other middle.The four-pronged plug attaches to the loco jack panel (after removing the tender).The DPDT switch is cross-wired underneath and is used to test the loco motor in forward and reverse.If the loco runs okay, then I know the problem is with the reverse unit in the tender.Caution; don't leave the switch in the "up" or "center" position. Have it thrown (or toggled) to one side or the other and quickly throw it back and forth when testing. You don't want to have current running only through the field and not the brushes at the same time or you may burn out the field.
I don't have a pic of this tester and I no longer even have that tester, but if there is interest in it, I would be happy to re-create it and post a pic. I know a pic is worth 1K words.
There are more repair tips on my blog. There is also some humor. If you don't like the humor, or find it offensive, then just skip those posts and look for the informational posts.
Wouldn't a momentary DPDT switch eliminate the constant current concern?
Tim, the DPDT wiring you described puts the field in parallel with the armature, which is not the way the motor is meant to be wired. It is a universal motor, which should have the field and armature in series not parallel. If you use the DPDT to wire it in series, then there is no danger in the center-off position, because the entire motor circuit is open, just as it is when the reversing unit, acting as a DPDT switch, is in the neutral position.
There are various ways to wire the switch. Here is one: Wire the switch's corner terminals diagonally to each other. Connect the armature (brushes) to the two diagonal wires. Connect one transformer terminal to one of the switch's center terminals. Connect the other center terminal to one of the field pins. Connect the other field pin to the other transformer terminal.
If I'm not mistaken, the field pins are at the bottom of the plug, and the armature pins are at the top.
Timboy Nice refinement! I am in favor of any variation that gets rid of the "center position" thing. Got a wiring diagram or pic? Truthfully, I haven't seen a refinement on this in 15 years - but oh boy, would I like to... Let's see who can get to RS and put up a prototype the fastest! I promise that I will not be put out if you beat me to it. Damnit - yes I would. I'm firing up the Ford. Feet don't fail me now!
Nice refinement! I am in favor of any variation that gets rid of the "center position" thing. Got a wiring diagram or pic? Truthfully, I haven't seen a refinement on this in 15 years - but oh boy, would I like to... Let's see who can get to RS and put up a prototype the fastest! I promise that I will not be put out if you beat me to it. Damnit - yes I would. I'm firing up the Ford. Feet don't fail me now!
Is that a Model T you are driving?
Tim boy,
Very nice! Where were you guys about a year ago?! I just serviced my dads collection of over 225 locomotives! This would have been nice to have. Way to go, and keep up the S. I was convinced it was long dead after the market dropped out last year... E unit... LOL...yep I guess I don't mind what there called as long as there being restored.
Well if you figure out how to fire off a 314AW whistle w/o the A.C. Gilbert button can you post? (seems the button cost almost as much as the engine).
Thanks and keep em runnin'
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