Gang Car Overheating

[Anonymous]

I recently installed some track on my layout with a dead end on each end to run my postwar Lionel no. 50 gang car. My gang car has always run great and when I was runing my trains last night it was no exception-initially. I had it going back and forth for quite a while while I was running my trains. I'm not sure exactly how long I had it runing for, maybe 5 minutes? Anyway, when it hit the one bumper, it just stopped. I cut the juice on the transformer and went to look at it. Picking it up, it was very hot. I tried running it again just after that to see what would happen and it went just a couple feet and then stopped. I came to the comclusion that it must have somehow overheated, but when I tried it this morning, having given it time to cool off, it just went a little ways and stopped. Can anyone help me with this problem?

[Big_Boy_4005]

I wish I knew the answer to this one Sask. Mine always did the same thing. I tried replacing the brushes, cleaning everything,and still the problem persisted.

There is one thing that I never checked, because I never thought of it until just now. The reversing mechanism. Because it relies on hitting the bumper to change directions, poor contact may result as it slows down. The process would feed on itself, and the gang car would just go slower and get hotter, until it just stops and fries. That's just a guess, because I ran out of patience with that thing long ago. Too bad really, I always thought the gang car was cute, and a real crowd pleaser.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the quick reply! Is it fried for good or will it still be able to run for a while before stopping again like it did the night I first discovered the problem? On Monday the 21st I'm giving a tour of my layout and was hoping to be able to have the gang car runing.

[Anonymous]

Does it have an open frame motor or is it a can? If it's a can, you may be able to get a replacement.

Sorry, I know nothing about those things.

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

It is just an old fashioned Lionel motor, cans hadn't been heard of when this was built. Trying to operate in the confined space of that housing may just have been a poor design by Lionel from the start.

I would like to hear from other people about their experiences with the good old #50. I have a bad feeling that this is pretty common behavior, and I'm not sure what you can do to fix it on short notice.

Personally, I don't think you have anything to lose by taking it apart and examining and cleaning it yourself Sask. It is already dead, and you may get lucky and find the problem. I wish I could be more positive with this, but this is my personal experience speaking. I suppose I could go take mine apart, and poke at it. Misery loves company.[swg]

[Big_Boy_4005]

After at least 15 years of disuse, and at leart half a dozen moves, I found minewith only a minimum amount of effort. I brought it up stairs and took it apart, immeadiately dropping a tiny screw into the deep pile carpet. It took me longer to find the magnet to retrieve the screw than it did to find the gang car in the first place.

Now that I have it in pieces on the desk, I have a better understanging of how it works. Mine is a filthy mess on the inside. Perhaps in my younger days I had a tendancy to over lubrucate my trains. I am now older and wiser.

As much as we want to reduce friction, wear, and heat on our trains, putting grease and oil in certain locations, may cause more harm than good. In this case less is definately more.

What may be happening is that as the motor warms, grease from the worm gear softens and splatters around the inside of the car. Under the bakeolite plate that has the reversing contacts I found a lot of grease. I know I didn't put that there. The problem is that grease is not electrically conductive.

This is the best theory I have to offer. Try taking your's apart and removing as much grease as possible, then put it back together and give it a try. It might be that simple. Good luck.

[eZAK]

Sask,
Do what Big_Boy suggests.

Take it all apart and clean every thing!
Remove all dirt and grease!
When you have it disassembled check all wiring for poor insulation!

The problem I had with mine was when it heated up the wire from the pick-up roller
got very hot , melted the insullation on the wire then melted into the plastic housing.

The problem with these is poor electrical contact on the slider for direction!
Either that or the little guy on top is using the brake way to much[:)]

When you reassemble grease only the worm gear at the bottom of the armature.
If you have any trouble feel free to let us know.

Big_Boy...Older and wiser??? [:D][(-D][:D]

It is a good thing you were not looking for mylar [swg][swg][(-D]

[okiechoochoo]

If all else fails, send it to a good Lionel service station with plenty of experience on postwar trains, like Davis Trains in Ohio. They can fix the problem

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well Pat It's true, I am older than Sask and wiser than I USED TO BE.[swg]
I'm still looking.

[Roger Bielen]

I've had the same problem on mine, one of these days I'll drop it off for an overhaul. For now it's part of a diorama with my old AF Mystic Station.

[tmackinator]

Spray the entire motor/frame mechanism with electrical contact cleaner. Then replace the motor brushes. I'm willing to bet that you brushes are worn or oil soaked. New brushes cure a ton of mysterious problems. Good luck

[daan]

Though not in a gang car, but in a mabuchi 540 of a tamiya rc-car and in a lilliput re4/7 I had the same problem. lack of power and heat buildup in seconds. In both situations the insulation in the rotor of the engine was gone. In an ac motor you will find fieldwindings and 3 windinggroups on the anchor. Those on the anchor might be fried. Just check with an Ohm-meter to find out if A: all 3 "feet" of the anchor have the same resistance and B: if they have enough resistance (compare with a running engine or field windings)
If your brushes are worn it results in sparking extremely and a huge ozon-smell. It will show itself graduately, while this started over night.
I hope I'm wrong, but if I'm right, rewinding the anchor or replacing it with a good one is the only way for repair.
This excessive overheating comes from the changing of direction constantly without slowing down and on a too short line. While running the motor cools off, but it heats enormously when changing direction from full speed left to full speed right in a second.

[Anonymous]

Well, I took the advice that some of you had given me and took my gang car apart and cleaned everything out. I must say that there sure was a lot of crud in there! I tried it and it ran fine at first, but then stopped. It occurred to me that it had been stopping in the same place and I finally came to the conclusion that it was a section of track causing that problem and not the gang car itself. I replaced the piece of track and it ran fine. However, I tried it a couple hours later just to make sure that everything was OK and it just crawled along and after going back and forth a couple times didn't have enough umph to hit the bumper hard enough to change direction. Picking it up it was very hot. I took it and set in in the deep freeze for about 10 seconds and then put it on the track and it went much better. The conclusion I've come to is that changing direction so many times without slowing down causes to motor to overheat, like daan pointed out in his post. Also the fact that it is a very small motor probably contributes to this. If it hasn't been run in a while, it will go very well and will run for a good while even as the motor heats up. But once it's been stopped after it has become heated, it won't run again until it has fully cooled down. I imagine that this is a problem with all gang cars and that there isn't anything you can do about it.

[eZAK]

Given what you have done and said I have a few questions.

1) How long can you run a cold engine before it stops?

2) What voltage are you running the car at?

3) If you lower the voltage will the car run longer?

4) If you raise the voltage will the car run longer?

5) Do you have a way to check the amperage on the section of track it is running on?

6) have you tried running the car with out the plastic covers?

I havn't run my gang car in a while so I can't add any thing to the answers.
Maybe someone here can do a test and find some answers.
What if someone were to put together a test track of maybe 20 pieces long with bumpers at each end. Power the track with two different transformers. One for say the first and last three sections of track and the other for the middle sections. Now put a higher voltage on the middle and a lower on the ends.

Would this make a difference?
It maybe worth a try!

Anybody willing?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Glad to hear that you got it running again Sask. I liked Daan's answer too. All of that reversing in short order can't be good for the motor.

Let's think about it in terms of physics. First you take electricity from the tracks, and turn it into motion.Then you take all of that kinetic energy from the car and slam it into the bupmer, where does the energy go? On an automobile it is converted to heat by your brakes, because you don't normally slam into things to stop. Also on the automobile, at least you take your foot off the gas when you apply the brakes. We don't turn the voltage down on the transformer. Actually, it is a natural reaction to turn it UP if the car doesn't hit hard enough to reverse.

Our poor little gang car doesn't have brakes, and the bumper doesn't get hot, oops. Part of the energy goes into deforming the rubber end on car, and some of it goes into the small thud when it hits, but that doesn't account for much. That only leaves the motor to disipate the heat, and before it gets any kind of chance to cool down, it's off to the races in the other direction heading for further heating when it gets there. Lionel has designed a rolling toaster![:P]

Maybe the secret to long life for gang cars is to not use the bumper reverse feature constantly. Try running it on the mainline, then throw a switch and run it into a siding with a bumper. The only problem is that the gang car may want to stall out on switches, because it only has a single roller pickup.

I wonder if the #60 trolly has these problems too, since it also has the bumper reverse feature.

Good luck and have fun with your open house Sask.[:)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Pat, I think you are onto something about the lower voltage, the secret is to hit only hard enough to make it reverse. Anything more is a waste and only adds to the heating. The idea of the longer track is good too, allowing for more cool down time.

One of the covers is the brush holder, so that has to be on. The other cover may be left off, but then you lose the men, including the turning man, and that is part of the fun of the car.

It's too bad that this design has a worm drive, because you completely lose any flywheel value that the armature may have. This would be helpful, because the momentum would help carry it into the bumper. The worm forces it to drive in at speed, lose all momentum, and start again from zero.

[Roger Bielen]

I had had my gangcar running on a loop without reversing and it overheated, though mine has not been serviced since day one. I know its long overdue, I have grooves worn into the pickups at least a 1/4 of the diameter. every time I've been to a train show the parts dealers have been out of the pickup rollers I need. One of these days I'll drop it off for servicing.

There's probably more than one problem giving the same symptom.