K-Line "F-Series" A-B-A Last Ditch repair effort

[Tower49]

Guys:

I have an (original) K-Line F Series A-B-A C&O diesel set. Its one of the first "6 motor" units (twin motors in all units) produced a couple of years before K-Line went belly up.  

It ran great until about 6 mos. ago, then it started stalling, it abruptly starts and stops to the pint it will not make it around the layout once without doing either. I popped the carbody and found a circuit board, since the can motors are loacted in the bogeys. I checked the wire nuts (!) for tightness and connectivity between the circuit board and the bogeys, and they seemd fine, but the problems persist.

I contacted Charles Ro for help, and described the symptoms, they said its most likely the electronic E-unit (meaning the circuit board), but parts for this engine are no longer available and the one place that still sold them are out of business.

So this is my last pitch before I have to go out and find another diesel set for my C&O consist:

Have you guys got any ideas?

 

[dougdagrump]

Give these folks a call, they got all the leftover K-Line parts after Lionel tookover. http://www.traindoctor.com/

[phillyreading]

If you can't get parts anywhere try the method mentioned below. If you get stuck Bob N. (lionelsoni)should be able to help you.

I know of a cheap fix but you would lose the reversing ability. Remove the circuit boards (cut wires at the circuit boards)and install 6 amp, 50 volt bridge rectifers in each diesel engine, so that would be three bridge rectifiers. The parts should be about $5.00 each at Radio Shack. You hook up the center rail roller power to one side of the rectifier and the frame goes to other side of the rectifier, the positive and negative sides go to the can motor. The bridge rectifiers have four metal wires coming off of it, positve and negative are marked by plus and minus signs, the other ones go to the motor. But remember you lose reverse!!

Lee F.

[dougdagrump]

By any chance did you check the tethers from The primary A unit to the B and the B to the trailing A. Try running the Lead A alone and observe the results, add the B unit and try running the AB observe the results, if no stalling issues add the trailing A unit, run and observe results. If the AB results in stalling try just the AA.

Have you tried checking the p/u rollers on the lead unit? Try cleaning both the roller and the shaft it rolls on, if one is malfunctioning, low or no power, and the other happens to loose power momentarily it could possibly trigger the e-unit.  

[ADCX Rob]

phillyreading

I know of a cheap fix but you would lose the reversing ability. Remove the circuit boards (cut wires at the circuit boards)and install 6 amp, 50 volt bridge rectifers in each diesel engine, so that would be three bridge rectifiers...

 

This general method can be used  while preserving F-N-R operation by using a very contemporary & simple "E-unit" as used by Lionel since the 1930's.

Use just one 6 amp rectifier to power the entire consist, keeping the tethers intact & original, placing the E-unit  and rectifier in the lead unit as is the original electronic unit.

For better performance with the E-unit & K-Line F's, re-wire the motors in each individual unit in series.  They are WAY too fast as wired in parallel from the factory.   This method also cuts the current consumption in half.

Another option is to use the Williams 6 amp reverse board and series wiring.

Either way, it can all be reversed if you ever locate a replacement K-Line board.

Rob

[dwiemer]

I have the Lackawanna set and have not had this issue.  If this is TMCC, have you tried a hard reset?  Just a thought as I have seen some odd behavior from modern electronics.

Dennis

[TRAINCAT]

If you determine that the reverse board is bad you could replace it with a board from Dallee electronics..

http://www.dallee.com/

 

Roger

[Tower49]

Thanks for all the great advice, Guys!

I contacted traindoctor.com (Brasseur Electric Trains, Inc.) - They can fix it and they have the OEM parts to do it. So I'll go this route for now.

But I have to say, when it comes to getting around a problem, you guys are amazing and I appriciate the help.

This particular diesel set that I have does not have TMCC, but it was one of the first 6-motor F consists made.

I did check the tethers between the units too, because they are delicate, but they snap right into place. I did not however, check for dirty rollers, I'll do that before I ship it out to Brasseur.

[RockIsland52]

Wow!!!!  Six motors.  How many cars can these haul.

Jack.

[EIS2]

dougdagrump

Try running the Lead A alone and observe the results, add the B unit and try running the AB observe the results, if no stalling issues add the trailing A unit, run and observe results. If the AB results in stalling try just the AA.

Did you try Doug's suggestion?  This will determine which unit is bad.

Earl

[laz 57]

If the units have TMCC, call up Electric Railroad and see if their boards will work?  It's worth a try.

laz57

[laz 57]

Here's their site.

http://www.electricrr.com/

laz57

[servoguy]

I had a problem like this with a 2-8-8-2 from MTH, and it turned out the track was dirty.  It didn't look dirty, but when I cleaned the track, everything worked fine.  The electronic E units are very quick to drop out if there is the smallest interruption of power.  I used a PW loco to pull the cleaning car, and it didn't have any trouble with the dirty track.

Bruce Baker

[Tower49]

I forgot to mention, Earl, that I did indeed try running the units in separate configurations. I ran "double AA" and then an "AB", but the results were the same.

This lead me to believe that the "Lead Unit" is the culprit.

As far as clean track goes, Bruce, I tried that too. But when this thing quits, only the "trailing" A unit is lit and the Lead unit is dark.

This is one of my late father's engines, so I'm really attached to it. I'm real grateful Doug gave me the lead on Brasseur Trains.

Growing up with all the postwar stuff, that was easy to fix, but this contemporary elecronic stuff is a whole different ball game. But what an impressive machine it is when it does run, pulling a nice string of varnish!

[dougdagrump]

The lead A unit is the only one with any "electronics", the B unit and the trailing A unit are slaved to the lead A unit. I have the B&O units that are identical to yours, except it has had TMCC added. My only complaints are they tend to be quite growly and, even with TMCC, tend to start like jack rabbits.

Good luck with yours.  

[Tower49]

Mine don't make too much noise, Doug, but they do jack-rabbit start like you say, and when they stop, no coasting here, They STOP!

I usually run my trains at scale speeds, but I have "put the coals" to this particular train once or twice, simply because its amazing to see how much power and speed these things can muster in a heartbeat. I pull a 6-car Williams C&0 Aluminum Luxury Liner set and she doesn't even know they're there!

I have a 26'L x 10'W double track main with Realtrax 0-72 and 0-82 banked curves. This allows the C&O "six motor monster" as my dad used to call it, the ability to really stretch her legs.

I'm just happy I can get this repaired (thanks to you) and continue to enjoy it.

[servoguy]

 If the light goes out in the lead A unit, the most likely problem is a loose or broken wire from the pickup or at some other point.  Check all the power wires going to the circuit boards to make sure that the solder is not broken.  I have fixed a lot of stuff where this was the problem.  I have had PW engines run erratically and when I took the shell off, one of the wires to the motor was broken.

Bruce Baker