Bruce,
What is a 3011 switch? Is it a 6-23011 part number, if so there is what is called the round circlaur file, or use it for target practice, to put this into permanently!!
Lee F.
msaccoBruce, I'm not sure if you've heard but these switches are infamous. Possibly one of the worst things Lionel has ever made. They are unbelievably problematic. Search the forums for info if you'd like but I would toss them. Sorry, Mike S.
To help you better understand what I went through with these switches, well here it is; 1) they don't work with Williams trains, the switch throw goes bonkers! when a Williams engine aproaches, gets within three track sectiuons of the switch, from any of the three ways in and out of the switch. 2) they develop problems over time, example is they start acting like there is a blinker from a christmas tree light set inside the switch housing, it stays powered up for two or three seconds then loses all power for two to three seconds and then the power comes back on and repeats this until it starts smoking.
Just for the everybody's information; I followed all instructions that came with these switches from Lionel!!!
Even the guys at Williams Electric Trains(before Bachmann buyout) said these switches were DUDS!!
For what it's worth, maybe you can gut the 23010 & 23011 and put a DZ-1000 switch machine in the 23010. At least that is my idea of how to get one to work again. Ross Custom Switches sells the DZ-1000's and the DZ-2500's seperately. I like the style of the 23010's but boy are they a problem child and a half!
The old 022's from the post war era were pretty simple to fix, either you had a short or an open or the solenoid locked up. Just solder the wire that came off from the switch point, that is what I have seen happen mainly.
Right now my layout is on the floor, so taking out a switch is no big deal. No scenery or soldered connections or screws to deal with.
Check out my posts on 022 switches at 022/711 switch pblms. You will find out that there are a bunch of problems associated with 022 switches, but once the switches have been suitably modified, they seem to be totally reliable.
Unlike the 022s, the 3011s seem to have a number of design and tolerance errors. It remains to be seen if I can fix all these without making it a big deal.
Bruce Baker
I have three of these in use on my layout, and love them.
I find that increasing the coil voltage can more reliably allow them to close.
In any case, mine are in use in a place where an O22 wouldn't be feasible. These switches allowed me to cram three yard tracks where an O22 would have only permitted two. I love the design, and wish that Lionel would have taken the time to make them bullet proof rather than reintroducing the O22.
Jon(Kooljock) also have five of these in use on his layout, and to my knowledge hasn't had any trouble. In my opinion, they get a lot more bad press than they deserve.
Bruce, I also had issues with a 3011 turnout, but received some great advice on the micro-switches inside the unit from Kooljock1 (Jon, I believe). My thread is "Lionel 3011 Turnout/Controller Problem" and is now on page 27 or so of this forum.
Good luck!
I used the constant voltage screw on the 23011 and set the voltage to about 13.35 to 13.5 volts by using a digital multimeter to measure the transformer output. Still I had problems with these switches. For some reason Williams engines made these switches act totally crazy, even though the electronics is very close to what Lionel used during the MPC era.
If I can I might modify one of my 23011's to use with a DZ Industry's DZ-1000 switch motor, this is what is used in Gargraves & Ross Custom switches.
I am not an electrical engineer but I did have ASE certification in auto mechanics and I have a decent knowledge of residential and commercial electrical work, so hopefully I can modify one of these switches as well.
Thank you for the tip about no electronics in these switches. With that being the case why do they operate differantly with Williams engines or Lionel's two position reverse unit(F-R-F, no N) in the MPC era Santa Fe Alco diesel engine. At least this has been my observation about these switches.
"...the coil has more turns so the switch will operate at a lower voltage." Bruce, generally, more turns in the same volume will require a greater voltage for the same magnetic effect. For example, if you go up 3 AWG sizes, you halve the cross-sectional area and can get twice the turns in. But the resistance is doubled because of the smaller wire and doubled again by having twice as many turns of it. So the magnetic field, proportional to ampere-turns, is halved unless you also double the voltage.
If the coils have been redesigned for lower voltage operation, I think it more likely that they use fewer turns of heavier wire.
Bob Nelson
Bob,
I will open up a couple of switches to have a look at the wire size. As you know, there are other things that affect the coil performance. If the coils are physically larger in the 3010 switches, then that will have a profound effect on the performance. I have had the 3010 switches open recently but didn't do a comparison of coil size and wire size.
Lee,
I don't know why the switches would work differently with different brands of engines. One thing I would suggest is clean the track in with a Scotch Brite pad as dirt on the non-derailing rail will serious impare operation of the switches.
The coil resistance of the 022 switches is about 6.8 ohms. The coil resistance of the 3010 switches is 4.8 ohms. So the wire used in the 3010 switches is definitely larger in cross section than the wire used in the 022 switches. The coil bobbins for the 022 switches are about 1" long and 0.75" in diameter. The coil bobbins for the 3010 switches are 1.56" long and 0.60" in diameter. The plungers in the solenoids are the same size at about 0.25" diameter. The wire diameter of the 022 switches is 0.015". I cannot measure the wire size of the 3010 switch accurately without disassembling the coils. However, there is a small loop of wire going between the two coils that I can almost get a caliper on, and it measures 0.018"+/- in diameter. The volume of the 022 coils is about 0.37 in^3 assuming the core is 0.3" in diameter. The volume of the 3010 coils is about 0.21 in^3. Based on the ratio of the volumes and the resistance, the wire size of the 3010 coils should be smaller than the wire size of the 022 coils. It is very difficult to measure the wire size of the 3010 coils, so the measurement could be in error by several thousands.
To help clear up the problem I was having, this would happen when the Williams locomotive got to two or three sections of track away from the switch, basically as it approached the switch and not just at the switch! I took the Williams engine off and used a post war Lionel engine and there was no problem. So I doubt that dirty track was the culprit.
Folks:
Just to complicate things a bit - I've had the 3010 and 3011 switches on my layout since I rebuilt it in 1997 - no major problems, no derailments, running a combination of Lionel Postwar, Williams (traditional GG-1, RF-16 Shark, RDC's, GP38, and scale-size Alco FA's, and MTH Railking RDC's. A couple of notes about the install:
1 - The switch controllers were problematic, so removed them, and went to TMCC and a SC-2 switch controller. My guess is that if you don't want to use TMCC/SC-2 that some momentary contact switches should work just fine.
2 - I use fixed-voltage for the switches from my old KW. Voltage is set using a meter and is just under 13VAC. With less than this, the switches do not always throw completely.
3 - Following an article in "the other magazine" some time ago, I added a brass shim to the small guard rail at the entrance to the switch (the bottom of the "Y") - the article also recommended adding a similar brass shim to the longer guard on the curved portion of the switch (same side as the small guard rail). After a while, I found that the longer shim wasn't really needed.
4 - This is more cosmetic, but I wasn't really happy with the lanterns and swapped out the factory bulbs for Miniatronics 14 Volt 2.4mm lamps (using the plastic bases from the factory lamps) - these are much smaller, generate a lot less heat, and provide a nice glow. The model number is 18-014-10. The also make the bulbs tinted yellow and these might really work well.
I have a right hand (3011) switch at the entrance to my engine service track where I had to switch the lantern to the other side. After I did that, the turnout did not throw all the way and I had to disassemble the switch a couple of times until I got everything aligned correctly (sorry - this is just a matter of trail and error) - once I did, had no further problems with the switch.
Some engines (such as Lionel RS-3 and Williams GP38) glide through the switches almost silently, others bump a bit as they go through but the only derailments experienced on the layout are as a result of "operator error."
So take heart, with some patience (stubborness?) and adjustments, the switches can function just fine.
If you have any questions, please let me know and I'll do my best to answer them.
Mike
Mike,
My first attempt to make the switches so the train would not derail was to try to modify the guard rail that is near the points and on the side of the curved rail. Than, when this was not very successful, I did some thing else which works very well. I soldered a piece of brass strap to the inside of the straight rail near the points. This strap is 0.031 thick, 0.25 wide, and about 1.25" long. This piece stick out past the end of the switch. I feathered the end of it so it is about 0.125 high at the end, and feathered it to a sharp edge along the top from the end of the switch to the end of the brass. I also rolled the top edge slightly so it was tight against whatever piece of track was connected to the switch. This effectively makes a notch in the straight rail so that the wheels of the engine are aligned with the switch points. So far this has worked perfectly. My F-3 2333 runs through the switch without any noise as does my 2046 Hudson steam engine. I will try some more engines in the near future, including some new ones. I think that everything is going to work OK.
Bruce, I have been poring over your numbers, with the following results:
I find the volumes to be much closer. I agree with .37 cubic inches for the 022; but I get .33 cubic inches for the 3010. It looks like you forgot to multiply the cross-sectional area by the length.
The slightly smaller volume of the 3010 would explain a similarly smaller resistance, even if the two were wired with the same-diameter wire, but not as much smaller as you measured. With the volume discrepancy taken into account, it seems that the wire diameter should be very slightly larger for the 3010 to explain the resistance decrease. For a particular volume, the resistance varies inversely as the fourth power of the wire diameter. This leads me to a wire diameter for the 3010 only 6 percent greater than for the 022 and close to half an AWG increment.
Of course, as you make clear, there are possible errors in all the measurements and assumptions, particularly the actual diameter of the bobbin cores, the thickness of the insulation on the wires, and the density of the windings. But it seems possible to me that the two coils are wound with the same gauge of wire, or that the 3010 has the metric equivalent of the 022's wire. Your number of .015 lies almost exactly in-between 27 AWG (.01420 inch) and 26 AWG (.01595) and, at .381 millimeters, almost exactly in-between the closest metric sizes in the Superior Essex catalog, .355 and .400 millimeters, which are very close to these two AWG sizes. So both might be 27 AWG or .355 millimeters, or both might be 26 AWG or .400 millimeters.
I should have qualified my statement, as: "All else being equal, If the coils have been redesigned for lower voltage operation, I think it more likely that they use fewer turns of heavier wire."
I will try to get some more accurate numbers this week end. I don't mind partially disassembling the 3011 switch to accurately mesure the wire diameter. I will try to measure it with and without the insulation so we can get a better estimate of the packing density.
You and I seem to be wired alike: We want to understand these things even though we are not going to rewind the coils. However, sometime in the future the understanding of this problem could be valuable. I have access to MatLab and could model this using SimuLink if we want to get really serious. In that connection, I started modeling dynamic systems in 1966 and have done a lot of it over the years. However, recently I had to model an EMI circuit, and it took me a while to figure out how to write the equations to do it. In 1966 I started working for Electronic Associates that manufactured analog and hybrid computers. I used the analog computers for the next 14 years.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month