Well - you have thoroughly confused me all to heck- what do you mean dangerous and not a safe way? How else do you run more than 1 train, standard, not dcs/tmcc, at the same time? You have to have more than 1 throttle, and at some point one may want to switch them from the one loop to the other. Is your comment due to my not saying the 'assumed' part, that one would have block switches tossed into the project?
"I know that if one is using separate transformers for each line, they have to be phased if the lines/loops can be exited/entered from other loops." Not a safe way to operate.
"I guess a ZW solves that..." No. It's even more dangerous when the loops are powered by the same transformer.
Bob Nelson
jfitz - Hi - I am unsure myself on that question, as I am just starting to do some wiring. I have an 'ell' form layout, 4x8 for the l part, w/ 5x14 for the other part, two inner loops, one full outer. I can see where O is more difficult then say HO, my previous gauge. It seems that one has to plan ahead a lot of wiring and things, as one cant easily 'push rail joiners' away and lift up a piece a track to make changes. I know that if one is using separate transformers for each line, they have to be phased if the lines/loops can be exited/entered from other loops. I guess a ZW solves that, but then if i remember correctly, one cant run newer loco's on old ZW's, or at least you dont want to touch the whistle levers. There is a thread about that someplace.
Probably the Kalmbach books have the best wiring info, but maybe someone else can chime in here with more experience on wiring. If you dont get any answers, it may be better to enter a new thread /discussion with the topic of newbie wiring
Tim
Nice pics and layout.I now get the coal scheme.
Can you recommend to this rooky a good printed source of simple O guage wiring instructions for an 8x12 layout with a simple configuration. Seems like there are hundreds to sort thru.
Thanks ,jfitz
Train-0:
What a complete and informative answer to the coal ramp/397 question;now I get it! maybe youcan help me, a rooky Lionel Postwar O guage,on the verge of his first ever layout at age 68.
I need a book or pamphlet that will simply explain wiring a first time 8x12 layout. I know ther are many ai am looking for that good one. Thanks ,jfitz
Congrats, no feeling like it.
Throw some lights on it for night operation!
You may also want to consider the 497 which requires only one track and is pretty quiet. its not quite as messy either.
thanks.
jim r from bridgeboss.com
Final thoughts based on several recent posts. All postwar era, traditional operation, of course:
The 397 and the 456 are each stand-alone items that nevertheless enjoy a happy effect when combined.
The "knock" on the 456 is that is has a long footprint and must be placed at the end of a spur. The 97 needs tracks in front and in back, but the 397 can be operated anywhere along a main or branch line where an unloading/uncoupling track can be placed. Only a single track is needed for basic operations but it is also very versatile as we have seen. It is my all-time favorite of the Lionel coal-moving accessories.
On my "once in a lifetime" layout we minimized the "everything happening at a single spot" effect by having the 456 on a spur and the 397 on what amounted to a main line, next to each other; but with the 97 between two main lines on the other side of the layout. That way we could move coal all over the place, and load/unload among different railroads, if we chose to. There were a couple of coal accessories that we did not employ, but managed to obtain lots of variety among 97, 397 and 456. We did much the same for logs, timber, and even scrap-metal with a magnetic gantry crane. It was busy, and took up a fair amount of space with reversing loops on each end of a modified folded dog-bone, with a locos-at-the-ready yard in the center and almost every operating accessory and car that Lionel made post-war. We didn't spend much effort on scenery. We did custom-tailor the power-sources to the accessories by using virtually every tap on two post-war ZW's and a KW, and supplied all of the switches with auxilliary power for reliability.
With just a little luck we could move coal and logs all over the layout with almost nothing in the way of manual loading/unloading. There were also lots of individually-switched items so that my two wonderful boys and the neighbors' no-neck monsters could all find something entertaining to do without causing damage; and nothing ever hit the concrete-floor from the 36 inch table-top. (Shallow guard rails are your friends.)
But those days are gone forever. As Dick Cavett once said, "Time's winged chariot is snapping at our fannies."
.
Joe,
Yes this certainly has been more fun than I expected, this thread, that is. Since I am just getting back into O myself, my experiences are less than others may have, but here's what I have seen. The ebay seems to have postwar 397's run from low $40's to $60's, NOT including pristine units that have orig boxes etc.
The 97 that I was watching yesterday quit at $103. The books say that the 97 takes two sidings @ 14-3/4" between the parallel center rails. Of course one could be interesting I imagine, and put the 97's discharge side against the one track siding to fill the coaler, and then instead of the 'dump' siding, play pretend, have a driveway, with back-up dump trucks dumping the coal in the 'in bin'.
The 397 just uses 1 track, unless you have that super cool setup pictured previously.I dont know yet how much room just the 397 model alone takes, as mine hasnt arrived yet - maybe 10 inches or so.
All I know is that it is REALLY fun to have some neat stuff, that I was never able to have when I was a young un.
Tim H
397/456 is definitely a winning combination
This is a great thread to read. I am hoping to have some coaling operations on my layout. I am originally from Shenandoah, PA, which used to be a serious coaling area. I am hoping to purchase post-war Lehigh Valley and Reading RR coal hopper to make it more authentic.
I will also need some coal loaders and towers. However, I will not have very much space for the layout. I initially thought I would have 5' x 10', but now I may have a small L-shaped layout or a 6' x 12' rectangle. Either way, not much room to load up big items.
What is the best coaling accessories for smaller layouts? Obviously, the layout is not prototypical. And I will be on a limited budget. What are fair prices I can expect to pay?
Thanks,Joe
Jim,
I like how your layout accessories fit in and accommodate one another, especially #'s 397 and 456.
Thank You,
Ralph
Nice photo - this setup actually makes more sense in a way. There is just a wee part of me that says "Uh - I am unloading coal from a car, then reloading it to a car at the same spot" But smack me - we are supposed to just have fun with the buttons and the toy trains - right!
Here is photo of the 456 and 397 on my PW Lionel layout that I am rebuilding.
bf,
Thank you, I now understand the principle of the two items working in conjunction with one another.
I never knew that they belonged together and by me not knowing, I would have bought one, or the other, but not both, as a set.
Good to know!
Thank you, again,
Train-O bf, I did not know that the 456 coal ramp was made to be added along with the 397 coal loader/receiver. Ralph
I did not know that the 456 coal ramp was made to be added along with the 397 coal loader/receiver.
Ralph, you're by no means alone. A lot of folks don't know that -- particularly those who want to sell you and incomplete 456 coal ramp. There is probably good visual material and instructions at the Library at Olsen's Toy Train Parts.
Here is a link showing the critical parts. As I recall, these originally came with the 456 and not the 397. The bin stood on the two aluminum stilts which fit into the rear grommets of tthe base of the 397. When the "coal" dropped beneath the hopper car it fell into the bin and collected there until manually released into the 397 via a little sliding trapdoor. All of these parts are available at good parts stores. So far I haven't been able to find a good photo of the 397/456 combination set up for full operation, but check this link for a good view of the necessary parts:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Coal-Ramp-Bin-w-Door-Posts-Maroon-for-Lionel-456_W0QQitemZ110493085236QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item19b9e6ae34
Most photos of the 456 show the bin just sitting on the base under the high point of the ramp, which is fine if you don't have a 397; however, if you do, you need the bin and the stilts or posts. Installation is a matter of 10 seconds and requires no tools, although the base of the 397 must have good "feet" aka rubber grommets.
Here's a tpyical photo:
http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_456_acc.htm
Here's a link to a 397 with the 456 bin installed. In practice, the 397 with the bin attached would be positioned next to and partially under the high end of the 456 ramp. The necessary parts are: 456-83 maroon bin; 456-84 coal bin door; and 456-85 posts. (2 required)
http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-397-COAL-LOADER-w-456-83-COAL-BIN-SERVICED-/130368731407
Awhile back, I was given the 397 by a Maternal Aunt and her family, which her husband, my uncle did not want any more.
This Aunt and her Sister, my other Aunt, when they were single, were instrumental in ordering from Santa Claus for Christmas of 1950, a Lionel Scout set for each of us four, older male, nephews of theirs.
I, just wanted to add the little bit of history.
I DUN It! Just won a 397 on the bay!
msacco Remember the 397 can be loaded and unloaded on the same track. For my layout I could only go with the 397. I love it. Noisy and a crowd pleaser. Mike S
Remember the 397 can be loaded and unloaded on the same track. For my layout I could only go with the 397. I love it. Noisy and a crowd pleaser.
Mike S
In addition to your very strong point, folks should be mindful that the PW 397 was designed to be paired with the PW 456 coal ramp which uses a bottom-dumping hopper car, such as the 3456. In the largest-of-my-lifetime layout, I had a 97, 397 and 456 all operating flawlessly on a layout designed to move coal around; using side-dumping as well as bottom-dumping cars in various combinations. All post-war, of course. Purchased for a song and tinkered back to operational perfection. It was wonderful, if I do say so myself. Not sure which I enjoyed more -- running them or keeping them it top working order.
Cool - thanks for the input - I hace to say the 97 seems to get my vote also, but the budget may make it the 397 - oh well - we will see.
I have both and they are great. If I had to go with one and you are on a budget, I would consider the 397.
John
I have both of the PW versions. Either would be a good addition. They take up about the same footprint on the layout.
I have a 2nd 397 and use it with the Rotary Tipple.
They all work fine.
I too have both my favorite though is the 97, fun to watch.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
I have both, and love both. Each is noisy, throws coal all over the place! If I had to choose one...I'd have to go withthe 97. I love the Prewar look, and the size of the 97 commands your attention, and doesn't take up much more space the the 397. Why not get'm both!
Dave
It's a TOY, A child's PLAYTHING!!! (Woody from Toy Story)
So I have decided in my new layout planning while rejoining the hobby, that I would like a Coal Loader. But havent yet decided which one of these two fine pieces to add in. Any thoughts out there about the pro's & con's about deciding between the 97 or the 397 Coal Loaders?
Thanks
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