The Ground Posts on a Z transformer go to the outside rail and the Power Posts go to the center rail, Correct?? In other words the U posts go to the outside rail and the 1,2,3,4 or A,B,C,D posts go to the center rail, correct?? Because I got an email from Lionel saying that the top set of terminals is for ground on a Z transformer. And that the bottom set is for power. Thanks.
Indeed, the top set of terminals on a Z transformer are common. Check here for more discussion on this.
Rob
None of the terminals on a Z are actually grounded unless you ground them. Lionel used the term "ground" loosely in that e-mail instead of the strictly correct word "common". So the upper terminals are the common terminals and the ones that should connect to your outside rails. Because they are common, they are all equivalent; so you can use any or all of them for any or all outside-rail connections, whatever is convenient.
Bob Nelson
Ok, got it. The top terminals go to the outside rail. And the bottom terminals go to the center rail. I think I might have done it right the entire time. Now, all is the same when wiring up with the 167 whistle/direction controller?? Wires up the same way, just have to wire in the 167. I have a manual for my 167's so I will go by what that says, but I do not reverse the common and power wires, correct?? I should keep them the same. thanks.
lionel2 Ok, got it. The top terminals go to the outside rail. And the bottom terminals go to the center rail. I think I might have done it right the entire time. Now, all is the same when wiring up with the 167 whistle/direction controller?? Wires up the same way, just have to wire in the 167. I have a manual for my 167's so I will go by what that says, but I do not reverse the common and power wires, correct?? I should keep them the same. thanks.
Yes.
Once you have determined which posts are "power" and which are "common" your wiring scheme should be consistent throughout your layout or you face the clear and present danger of creating a "short circuit." *
Why would you assume otherwise? It's one thing to be cautious around electricity; it's quite another to repeatedly refuse to take "yes" for an answer.
You are credited with 845 posts on this forum, which suggests an ongoing interest in toy trains. If so, you need to spring $20 bucks or so at Sears or Radio Shack and purchase an inexpensive multimeter. If you already have one, by all means use it. If you are uncertain as to how, read its instructionas and then post questions on the forum, because you reallly need to know the basics -- how and why to test for continuity, if nothing else.
Someone may say that you don't need a meter, you can do many tests with less; but to me this is like saying you don't need a pick-and-shovel to dig a hole. That's true -- you could dig with your bare hands -- but why do it the hard way?
Despite its long history, the terminology stinks; and although the technology is prettry consistent, the terms used to describe it are not. "Power" and "common" are as good (bad) as any. I keep them straight on the layout by using red wires for power, black for common, and green for the rare true earth-ground. You are certainly free to adopt your own color scheme; but once you do, stick with it.
.
Ok, got it. Most of my questions are about standard gauge lionel trains and no one seems to know much about standard gauge lionel. Maybe except for a few people on here that help me out every so often. And I really appreciate everyone's help. My hobby shop close to me, does not know much about standard gauge, therefore I ask questions on here. I am sure Lionelsoni can help me with my 392E matter. As he knows a lot about standard gauge. And there is just no info online that tells you how to fix things. I just have to assumer everyone on here knows their stuff. I wish I could know more, but the only way to know is to do myself with some help from others. I am now good with the Z situation. Now, the 392E is the next task I have to tackle. Its on a post on here as well. But, people just seem to view it and not add a tread. oh well. I am trying to get this loco up and running again for my layout because the kids love to see my standard gauge steam locomotives in action. This hobby is all for the kids, and without my 392E on the layout, I am limited to what I can use. Thanks.
lionelsoniNone of the terminals on a Z are actually grounded unless you ground them. Lionel used the term "ground" loosely in that e-mail instead of the strictly correct word "common".
None of the terminals on a Z are actually grounded unless you ground them. Lionel used the term "ground" loosely in that e-mail instead of the strictly correct word "common".
Bob,
Could you explain the difference between ground and common? Thanks.
lionel2,
Does your 392E have a E unit like those used on post war engines? With a rotating drum? If it does, and it is not working well, the first thing I would do is spray it with WD-40 and see if that frees it up. I have done this to a few E units and always had good results. If someone has oiled it in the past, and the oil has gotten gummy, this will probably wash out the gummy oil and fee up the unit. Also, WD-40 is a very good contact cleaner, IMHO much better than stuff that is sold as contact cleaner. I have nearly 40 years experience using WD-40 and CRC-336 as contact cleaners. WD-40 will disolve corrosion on contacta which other contact cleaners won't do. Over the years I have tried other things for cleaning contacts and nothing works like WD-40.
I recommend that you do not disassemble the E unit unless it is absolutely necessary. If the drum is damaged, or the contact fingers are worn out, you may need to rebuild the unit. However, E units are easily damaged, so disassembly may result in more problems. I have never had a problem with an E unit that WD-40 wouldn't fix.
Bruce Baker
Pops,
Ground is just what it means, a wire that is generally hooked up to a ground source; example an eight foot copper rod driven into the ground, or a copper water pipe in the ground, will give you a good ground source. The word ground is commonly mis-used, especially in automotive work where they say to ground your speakers which means to pick-up the negative from the frame(metal) of the vehicle.
Neutral or common is the return wire mainly on a 120 or lower volt A.C. circuit. A higher voltage circuit like 240 volts or 277 volts will usually have two or three hot wires and a ground.
Lee F.
Actually, as a special case, the frame of a vehicle (even an airplane or space vehicle) is considered to be a ground. The symbol for a ground is a triangular arrangement of short (usually) horizontal lines:
A common, short for "common return", is simply a node that is literally common to a number of circuits. There can be more than one common in a system. For example, you might have the outside rails and the U terminals of a ZW transformer as one common, which you might call the "layout common". Then you might have a color-light signal with two or three lamps and a common connection to them that you might have connected to an accessory voltage supply. And somewhere you might have a single-pole-double-throw switch with a common terminal that is shared between the normally-open contact and the normally-closed contact. The symbol for a common is an open triangle, with some marking inside it as needed to indicate which of several commons it might be in a system:
A neutral is a special kind of common in which the return currents from the circuits can partially or completely cancel each other. Commons and neutrals may or may not also be grounds. In the US, residences have a grounded neutral shared by two 120-volt circuits, and businesses have grounded neutrals shared by three 120-volt circuits and others shared by three 277-volt circuits. In many other countries, grounded neutrals are shared by three 230-volt circuits. Layout commons are not usually grounded, although I think that it would be safer to ground them. Accessories returned through the outside rails from an out-of-phase accessory supply make the rails a (probably ungrounded) neutral, with the cancellation of return currents reducing the voltage drop for both the trains and the accessories.
There is another ground-common-like symbol for a connection to a chassis or frame, that is a (usually) horizontal line with short diagonal lines under it:
All of these symbols can legitimately be used in any orientation; but an obsession with using them in the orientation shown, no matter how bizarre it makes the circuit diagram, is very common.
Great explanation, Bob. It's great to have someone so well grounded in electrical stuff to help us out here! I've tried to follow your advice as best I can on my layout and, so far, things are running great.
Charlie
"Well grounded" indeed! My pleasure.
Hello Lionelsoni, Could you give me some help with my problem with my 392E?? It is on another post and it seems that no one was able to help me out, thought maybe you could help. Thanks.
Thanks, Lee and Bob.
Just like to point out that confusingly, the terminals labled U on a ZW or KW and similarly marked on an RW , 1033, etc do not directly correspond. I believe Lionels installation diagrams show U hooked to the outside running rails, and the opposite with an RW or 1033. I don't really recall the scheme for LW or Tw, etc, and most of the time, it is not a problem, but it can be in a situation where two transformers are phased together an in use on one layout, and you choose to use a fixed voltage terminal on the RW as a climbing or descending voltage on a grade. This may be to far afield for this discussion, suffice it to say you will need to connect the Uon the ZW to A or B on the RW or 1033 to acheive the result you want. I am sure Bob Nelson can elaborate more on this.
stuartmit,
Yes, I've noticed that. I have a TW, LW, 1033 and 1044. And on all of them the U-A posts are the opposite of the ZW, KW, etc. Caused me quite a bit of confusion.
stuartmitI believe Lionels installation diagrams show U hooked to the outside running rails, and the opposite with an RW or 1033
You are correct about the 1033, at least. I have one with original instructions from my youth and a ZW with original instructions as well. The 'U' posts are reversed I have both transformers hooked up to the layout & they work great when wired per Lionel instructions & lionelsoni's suggestions regarding wire gauge, etc.
But, as mentioned earlier, it's easy enough to figure out the common on a transformer by following the ideas in this thread.
It is amazing how much electrical knowledge I have been able to pick up from guys on this forum. Thanks
Charlie.
If anyone is interested in looking at "source material" on this subject, try the link below. You would be well advised to read the entire document -- six pages, and THEN go to the particular postwar transformer that you are interested in. Not all old Lionel transformers are listed, but most are.
The most important section is the chart at the bottom of the last page. It clearly shows what combinations of posts Lionel intended you to use. In many cases, the operator is asked to select what post he wants to use for "common" and it isn't always "U" . (It generally is the "U" post with late pre- and post-war transformers with two or more throttles, such as the Types V, Z, VW, ZW, KW, etc; but for many of the old transformers that had only one throttle, such as the 1033,1044, Type Q, etc., there are numerous options for the "common" post -- based on what you want the rest of the posts to do.)
The simplest rule I can come up with is this: You may have to read a little in order to decide which post on your transformer you want to use as the "common" in a given situation; but whatever you select should be connected to the OUTSIDE rails. Study the chart and see whether you agree.
Note: Lionel uses the terms "ground," "common," and "common ground" more-or-less interchangeably. These terms refer mostly to the circuitry that occurs completely "downstream" from the primary coil of the transformer; that is, the secondary coil and the wires to the track/accessories on the layout. They are generally not talking about any "true earth-ground" * involving cold-water pipes or metal poles driven into the ground. Lionelsoni may pick a nit here, but what the typical operator needs know is that every device on the layout requires a supply of power out from the transformer, and another path for the circuit to be completed back to the transformer. You can either supply two wires to-and-from each device; or supply one wire "out" to each device and a single wire back from all of the devices combined. If you choose the second method, you have created a "common ground" or "common return" or just a "common," that is, a single conductor that is "common to" (shared by) all of the devices.
Typically, the principal component of this single conductor is the outside rail; although it could also be a "bus bar" or a heavy "bus wire."
The operator often has a number of hook-up options. These options are shown clearly in the Olsen's site that I have linked to below. The operator should be mindful some hook-up combinations do not go through the circuit-breaker and therefore must be fused separately. Study the link below; and if you do not understand it, please come back with questions:
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=630
Some very useful info can be found at this link; but I can't read it for you. If you try it, you might then go to the next link and try to find info on your particular transformer:
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd2g.htm
Sometimes the links work, sometimes they don't. If they don't, let Olsen's know. (This same material is also available in printed form.)
Personal note: I received my first Lionel train before I learned to read. My father set it up for me and promptly lost the Owner's Manual for the transformer. I had a world of fun with my trains but never really understood the various hook-up options until I bought the first train for my own children which included a Type KW transformer and discovered the "Complete Service Manual for Lionel Trains, by K-Line," and later the very similar material on the Olsen's website. Only then did it all make sense. I strongly recommend you check them out if you want to run traditional pre- or post-war equipment.
* In other threads, Bob "lionelsoni" Nelson considers the matter of providing a true "earth-ground" connection for these old transformers. That is fundamentally a different matter from what is discussed above, but those who are interested can check it out on the "Search Community" tab, above right.
The general rule seems to be that U is common when the transformer has more than one variable output, and that U is not a natural common otherwise.
I advise against using a fixed voltage, or any adjustable voltage for that matter, to adjust train speed on a grade. Unlike the usual wiring of consecutive blocks to separately controlled voltages, where the operator at least intends to use the same voltage on both sides of the block gap, the grade wiring always presents the train with different voltages.
lionelsoniI advise against using a fixed voltage, or any adjustable voltage for that matter, to adjust train speed on a grade. Unlike the usual wiring of consecutive blocks to separately controlled voltages, where the operator at least intends to use the same voltage on both sides of the block gap, the grade wiring always presents the train with different voltages.
A good argument to use the Trainmaster CAB-1 / PowerMaster combination (TMCC Conventional).
The control triacs don't care if they are "back-fed" from an adjacent block set to a higher voltage. Bridging the block with pickups/rollers or a passenger cars does create a load, still(on the PM-1 set to the higher voltage), but not a short to the other PM-1.
I agree with Rob that Power Masters will not be harmed in this situation. The downside of using them is that they apparently use the same phase-control technique as the CW80, according to US patent 5749547, which seems to upset some brands of locomotives.
An alternative that is safe with any kind of transformer or "transformer" is a passive voltage-dropping device. Traditionally a resistor (rheostat) has been used for this; but they have poor voltage regulation. (The track voltage varies with the current drawn by the train.) A modern alternative with good voltage regulation is a series string of diode pairs connected in anti-parallel, which can be made easily using bridge-rectifier modules.
First off, I have trouble quoting from your comments; I know I'm not using the right technique, and I can't find how to do it anywhere on the site. Be that as it may, tho,
Bob Nelson states:
A modern alternative with good voltage regulation is a series string of diode pairs connected in anti-parallel, which can be made easily using bridge-rectifier modules
I have no idea what is being said above, or what diodes can do for you. who has a book in which this kind of stuff is covered ,as well as Bob's schemes for using hidden light bulbs to assist in nonrelay operation of signals. Something that might be called "post 1950 circuitry for 3 rail train operation" (if you steal my title I'll sue ya!)
Stuartmit,
I don't know whether it's the "right" way, but on this forum I simply hit "Reply" to bring up the post to which I am replying, and then hit "Quote" to reproduce that post in my reply. If I only want to respond to a specific part of it, I delete what I don't want and then note that I have quoted it only in part.
As for understanding the posts of certain hyper-educated members, it is sometimes true that if one knew enough to understand the answer, he wouldn't have needed to ask the question in the first place. That is precisely why I repeatedly cite original Lionel source materials -- especially those that are available online. Often they contain instructions and tips that were written for the train-operating public back in the '40's or 50's. By today's standards, these instructions are not String Theory.* If folks would just take a little time to read them, they could then come to the forum with much better questions -- and better questions tend to generate clearer answers.
*You thought I was going to say "rocket science" didn't you?
I didn't give the details because I have posted them so many times before. But I am always willing to describe something again if anyone asks.
The idea is to put something in series with the transformer that will reduce the voltage at the track. If it is in series with the same transformer output that is powering the track generally, there is no safety issue. The traditional thing to use is a resistor (or an adjustable resistor--a rheostat). It will drop the track voltage in proportion to the current that the train is drawing. If the train draws 3 amperes and the resistance is 1 ohm, the track voltage will drop by 3 volts. But, if the next train draws 6 amperes, the voltage will drop by 6 volts. This can be a nuisance if you're not running the same train up and down the hills every time.
Diodes, on the other hand, have a voltage drop across them that is largely independent of the current that the train draws; so you'll get the same result with little trains and big ones. Diodes conduct current in one direction only. So, to use them with the AC that we get from a transformer, you need to connect two of them in parallel, so that one can conduct the current in one direction and the other one in the other direction. When you connect them cathode-to-anode (striped end to unstriped end) to do this, it's called "anti-parallel".
One pair of diodes connected like this and put in series with the transformer output will reduce the track voltage by about half a volt. So, if you need more voltage reduction, you just make another pair and put it in series with the first pair. You string together however many pairs it takes to get the voltage drop that you want. (That is, until the train runs at the speed you want.)
This is where the bridge rectifier comes in. It has 4 diodes inside it that are already wired together in a way that we can adapt for this purpose. We're not using it as a rectifier, just a handy package of diodes. All we have to do is connect the + and - terminals together and we have a ready-made series string of two anti-parallel pairs of diodes. The ~ terminals are the ends of that little string; and the +- terminals are the middle of it. Now we can connect a bunch of these modules together, ~ to ~, and get about a volt of drop for each module. We can connect more than we need and then make adjustments by making a connection somewhere along the string. The more diodes of the string that we include, the less voltage at the track.
If you've got some level track, some uphill track, and some downhill track, you can connect the center rail of the uphill track directly to the transformer terminal, because that's where you need the most voltage. You need a little less voltage on the level track; so you can connect that center rail somewhere down the string, whose end is connected to the same transformer terminal. And you need the least voltage of all on the downhill track; so you can connect its center rail even farther down the string, away from the transformer.
(Optional paragraph: Those who know that the forward drop of a diode is about .65 volts may wonder why you don't get quite that much of a drop with each pair of diodes. One way to understand it is that the diodes are subtracting (nearly) a square wave from the sine wave out of the transformer. The fundamental component of that square wave is at the same frequency as the sine wave, 60 hertz, but opposite in phase; so it subtracts from the original voltage. But the square wave is also rich in harmonics at odd multiples of 60 hertz. These components have nothing to subtract from in the sine wave, so they can only contribute to the RMS voltage that gets to the track, somewhat reducing the net voltage drop.)
Talking of transformer, Lionen 1015 45 watt, I found the answer but then undid wires and couldn't remember, looked for a couple hours, still couldn't find out whitch post went to center rail. With the posts of the transformer away from me and the slide lever near me I think the left post went to the center rail?
Thanks very much
Because that transformer has only two terminals and no whistle control, it doesn't matter.
In response to Bob's clear descriptioin of diode use, when you go into a Radio Shack looking for bridge rectifiers, are there ratings or capacities yiu have to look for in volts, amps, ohms, etc?
Everything they have will have a voltage rating of at least 50 volts, which is plenty for us. For a rectifier used for lights in a car, 1.4 amperes is enough. For one used with locomotives, 4 amperes or more.
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