Sorry if this has been explained before but I did some searching and could not find the answer.
I see the term "Baby" all the time like Baby Berk, Baby Mikado, etc. Does this mean the size of the loco vs another non-baby Hudson or Berk? Would it run on tighter curves? Just trying to figure it out.
Thanks.
Less than scale, i.e. traditional sized.
Roger Bielen Less than scale, i.e. traditional sized.
By traditional sized, do you mean post war? Are there Lionle Hudsons or Berks that are not "Baby" or traditional sized?
I only have a 4-4-2 steamer from the PA Flyer set and would that be considered less than scale?
Lionel can be confusing, because they sometimes made engines of the same wheel arrangement but in different sizes. For example they made several "scale" Hudsons like the 700-E or 773 which were full 1/4" scale models. They also made "semi-scale" Hudsons like the 2046/2056/646 which were pretty close to scale height and width, but shortened to fit O-27 or O-31 curves. These used the same body as the Berkshire BTW.
I'm not sure of the numbers offhand, but I think they made some even smaller 4-6-4s that were closer to "traditional" O-27 size engines, overall much smaller than a scale engine.
"BABY anything in Lionel terms is a smaller size of one of there other locomotives, about 20% smaller. The baby size is actually the normal traditional size for Lionel and will run on "O" or "O-27" track. Full scale models are larger, have more "hand applied" detail, and is aimed at model railroads with "O-42" or "O"-72" track.
My 2046 (Baby Hudson) from 1950 is 20 inches long from cowcatcher to tender coupler. My 5340 (Scale Hudson) is 24 inches long.
The New York Central "Hudson Class" locomotive entered the Lionel Line in 1937 with the full scale #700E.
The next year, 1938, a small "Hudson" appeared. The 4-6-4 wheel arrangement became a 2-6-4 in the number #226E. The two wheel lead truck allowed it to clear the Steam Chest on "O" gauge curves.
Following World War II, the #226 casting was re-used in the #726/736 Berkshire, and then in 1950, in the #2046 "O-27" Hudson. Other very fine Hudson were made in the 1950s. The 1946 to 1959 Baby Hudsons are among the best "all around" locomotives Lionel built.
Scale Hudsons, #700E / #763E ran from 1937 to 1942, the #773 in 1950 and 1964 to 1956. Re-runs by Lionel from the 1980s and 90s are easy to find.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
In general terms, it's seems like Lionel has tried to cater to different buyers over the years by having sort of a "Small, Medium, and Large" choice in engines, cars etc. Referring to DMUinCT posting above, my 2056 "semi-scale" Hudson is about 4" shorter than a full size scale Hudson model...but it's also bigger than my old 2037 2-6-4, which is a small O-27 engine who's outline is also based on an NYC Hudson. The 2037 looks fine with the smallest O-27 cars, but looks too small connected to scale cars, just as the scale Hudson looks 'wrong' with tiny O-27 cars behind it. The "medium" size engines like the 2046/2056 Hudson or 736 Berkshire can hook up to Standard O scale cars without being dwarfed, but can also pull O-27 cars without overwhelming them.
Nice summary, Don, and very helpful. So you have one of the 3 cab window Hudsons too! I'd like to add the words powerful, simple, and about as close as you can get to bulletproof.
Jack.
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
RockIsland52 Nice summary, Don, and very helpful.
Nice summary, Don, and very helpful.
I agree, thanks for the info Don!!
wjstix In general terms, it's seems like Lionel has tried to cater to different buyers over the years by having sort of a "Small, Medium, and Large" choice in engines, cars etc. Referring to DMUinCT posting above, my 2056 "semi-scale" Hudson is about 4" shorter than a full size scale Hudson model...but it's also bigger than my old 2037 2-6-4, which is a small O-27 engine who's outline is also based on an NYC Hudson. The 2037 looks fine with the smallest O-27 cars, but looks too small connected to scale cars, just as the scale Hudson looks 'wrong' with tiny O-27 cars behind it. The "medium" size engines like the 2046/2056 Hudson or 736 Berkshire can hook up to Standard O scale cars without being dwarfed, but can also pull O-27 cars without overwhelming them.
Thanks Stix, your explaination is very helpful too.
Would you or anyone else know the freight cars that came with a Pennsy Flyer Set from 2006 would be considered "Small, Medium or Large"
Is my understanding of the posts correct as follows:
Small = O-27, Medium = Standard O or Semi-Scale, Large = Scale
Thanks!
It's my understanding of the posts correct as follows: Small = O-27, Medium = Standard O or Semi-Scale, Large = Scale Thanks!
So would this be correct?
Small = O-27
Medium = Semi-Scale or Traditional O
Large = Scale or Standard O
I just want to make sure that I am understanding this correct, so sorry if I seem to be a pest by replying to this post so often..
Right on:
We could also add the Pre-War 1666E, 1664E as a "O-27" smaller NYC Hudson outline locomotives as well as the "O gauge 224E. All three used the same basic body casting. The 224E and 1666E had a 2-6-2 wheel arangment while the 1664E was a 2-4-2. The 1666 and 1664 was again cataloged the 1946 and can be identified by the Nickle Rim drivers. The 2026 and 2036 (Magne-Traction)( 2-6-4).
All this goes for freight car too. I just bought several "lots" of freight cars and when I strung them out behind our, what I consider is a "medium' sized 4-6-4, they sure look strange unless you separate them out and kind of match them together. I found the K-Line cars that came in the black and yellow box without any designation such as 0/0-27 to be the smallest. Williams cars from the Classic Freight Series to be just about right, maybe "medium" then, sort of 0/0-27. Then we got one really nice K-Line 0 Scale Classics freight car that is a monster, must be the Standard 0. At first I was disappointed but after I sorted them out I felt better. I learned a lesson to make sure I know the "size" of cars I'm buying even though they are "0 gauge".
We're in the market for passenger cars that we want to pull around on a mimimum 042 curved main line (maybe one area too for our 034 Marx curved track) but still would like them to work in a yard that has 027 switches. I'm still confused as to what to look for. Especially the length of the cars which would to be a max of 13.5 inches I think. In fact, 13.5 inches may be still too long for 027 curves. My wife, as a child, rode to California on the "El Capitain" a number of times and would like to see it running on our layout. Sounds great to me!
Sorry this is off the "Baby Hudson" stuff but I thought it was sort of close enough.
Thanks all, Mickey
kgstones All this goes for freight car too. I just bought several "lots" of freight cars and when I strung them out behind our, what I consider is a "medium' sized 4-6-4, they sure look strange unless you separate them out and kind of match them together. I found the K-Line cars that came in the black and yellow box without any designation such as 0/0-27 to be the smallest. Williams cars from the Classic Freight Series to be just about right, maybe "medium" then, sort of 0/0-27. Then we got one really nice K-Line 0 Scale Classics freight car that is a monster, must be the Standard 0. At first I was disappointed but after I sorted them out I felt better. I learned a lesson to make sure I know the "size" of cars I'm buying even though they are "0 gauge". We're in the market for passenger cars that we want to pull around on a mimimum 042 curved main line (maybe one area too for our 034 Marx curved track) but still would like them to work in a yard that has 027 switches. I'm still confused as to what to look for. Especially the length of the cars which would to be a max of 13.5 inches I think. In fact, 13.5 inches may be still too long for 027 curves. My wife, as a child, rode to California on the "El Capitain" a number of times and would like to see it running on our layout. Sounds great to me! Sorry this is off the "Baby Hudson" stuff but I thought it was sort of close enough. Thanks all, Mickey
Hi Mickey,
While I usually prefer Lionel equipment, for the 027 passenger cars, especially in the Heavyweight type, I like the MTH RailKing, Rugged Rails cars, very nice looking. The Rugged Rails Streamlined cars are nice also, and are 027 compatible, both types are about 12" long.
For the El Capitan, in particular, I recently saw the Lionel El Capitan set, and it impressed me, it would be worth looking at.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
New Haven Railroad photo 1943. Size is in the eye of the beholder.
I haven't noticed the term "Baby" used to describe any recent products, but Lionel has been using the term jr. on less than scale size locomotives, such as the Hudson jr, the Mikado jr and the Berkshire jr. They don't really seem to be consistent in exactly what it means though, other than less than scale size. I have some of each, and to me, the Hudson jr and the Berkshire jr, are more of an 027 size, while the Mikado jr seems to me to be more of a traditional size, and is much more detailed than the Hudson jr or Berkshire jr.
Don U, thanks. I guess if the big boys can do it so can the little boys.
Doug, thanks for the passenger car help. I had a look at the the Rugged Rails passenger cars. I found 13 different ones. In real life these 12 inch cars would be about 48 feet long, right? I guess they're made so they can run on the 027 curves. So, now we have several more questions that this has all generated. Wife says she also traveled on the Super Chief. I googled around and it seems that the El Capitan was a coach only train and the Super Chief was a train with all sleepers. Not sure that's right but that's sort of what I was reading. Wife says she rode the Super Chief and they slept in coach seats. Anyway, you all are helping me learn about these passenger trains and the cars. The Rugged Rails Santa Fe passenger cars did not include a diner or observation car. Seems like the end car should be an observation car although not in every case I guess. The Lionel version did have an observation car.
Thanks again for the help. Lots to think about.
Mickey
Lehigh Valley Railroader,
These guys really covered my favorite topic when I was away. I will just add my 2 cents. Post War Lionel was marketed as 4 digit numbers in steam as O27, example 2055 and 3 digit numbers as O gauge, example 685. The opposite goes for the numbering for diesels and electrics. My favorites are still the post war "Baby Hudsons".
John
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