I'm trying to upgrade/add to the transformer power we are now using. Our carpet layout can get pretty extensive when the boys get imaginative so it will run into various rooms. One point being the engineers can't see around the corners or through the walls. I have an opportunity to buy a Z-4000, not one of the new ones. I can also get a TMCC basic set up consisting of a Powermaster, remote, PH-1 Power House and Command Base. I'm also trying to buy an MTH locomotive with ProtoSounds 1.0.
Questions:
1. Can the ProtoSound 1.0 engine be upgraded to ProtoSound 2.0 and, if so, about how much would it cost?
2. If the answer to question 1 is yes, then the upgraded engine will run just like the newer engines that come with the ProtoSound 2.0 system, right?
3. One major objective I have is to have each of two grandsons run his own train with his own remote independent of the other over the same rails. Hopefully they can run behind each other, pass at passing sidings, etc without special wiring each using his own remote.
I've heard that only one remote can be used at one time even though it can control many engines. This goes for both the DCS and TMCC systems? Is this true?
I was told that the only way to have two people with two separate remotes run two separate trains on the same track is to use both systems at the same time. So one person would run his Lionel engine with the TMCC system and the other person could run a separate engine with the MTH DCS system.
If this is all true, how would one power the track so both system would work? Also, how much track could be powered with a single power source? I would probably have to run power leads to track that is far away from the main power source.Is any of this possible? Am I asking for too much?
Thank you all!
Mickey
MTH PS-1 locos can be upgraded to PS-2. MTH sells the upgrade kits for diesels and steamers.
I run both TMCC and PS-2 locos on the same track. Sometimes I will use the DCS controller for the TMCC loco and sometimes I will use the TMCC controller for the TMCC loco.
I use 4 Lionel 135 watt bricks on the layout for operations, one for each channel of the TIU.
Bill T.
Mickey,
Of course everything is relative in terms of how much you want to invest, and is it primarily a temporary setup, or more semi-permanent. From you post I kinda got the feeling you were looking at a temporary set up. I'm going to try and address your questions separately below.
However, IF the intent is to be able to run multiple trains on one track with the Grandsons, you really do NOT need two systems. The TMCC will do fine. You will need multiple Cab-1 controllers, (remotes) but that would be it, given the TMCC setup you described. (Consider the TMCC and MTH's DCS system as being competitive systems. There are benefits to each, and they WILL coexsist.)
I am ASSUMING, you have a Lionel TMCC engine to run with the TMCC basic system. A MTH ProtoSound 1.0 OR 2.0 will not run on the TMCC system in a remote or Command mode. Only as a conventional engine. (To run the MTH Protosound 1.0 or 2.0 you will need a DCS Control System. And remember 1.0 will and 2.0 are not the same systems.)
Sounds confusing, but in summary;
- Conventional mode, Transformer Control only. (Practically any engine.)
- TMCC (Lionel) - Will run conventional, and TMCC. (Not Protsound 1.0 or 2.0, except in a conventional mode.)
- DCS (MTH) - Will run conventional, Protosound 2.0 (MTH engines), AND can run TMCC (requires command base), as well as Legacy (Lionel, also requires Legacy command base.)
kgstones I'm trying to upgrade/add to the transformer power we are now using. Our carpet layout can get pretty extensive when the boys get imaginative so it will run into various rooms. One point being the engineers can't see around the corners or through the walls. I have an opportunity to buy a Z-4000, not one of the new ones. I can also get a TMCC basic set up consisting of a Powermaster, remote, PH-1 Power House and Command Base. I'm also trying to buy an MTH locomotive with ProtoSounds 1.0.Questions:1. Can the ProtoSound 1.0 engine be upgraded to ProtoSound 2.0 and, if so, about how much would it cost? Yes, but in MY opinion, I dont think I would do it. Reason is by the time you buy a Proto 1.0, then the upgrade kit. You are very close to the purchase price of a new engine with 2.0 in it originally. And the detail on the newer engines is for the most part better than what was on the 1.0 engines. IF a specific train had some sentimental value than that is different, OR if their was a specific engine you wanted and couldn't find the 2.0 version.2. If the answer to question 1 is yes, then the upgraded engine will run just like the newer engines that come with the ProtoSound 2.0 system, right? Yes, for the most part. But the new 2.0 engine will usually have some specific sounds that are typical for THAT engine. You will be able to download sound files after upgrading a 1.0 engine. But, that can be laborous, dependent upon how comfortable you are on the computer. 3. One major objective I have is to have each of two grandsons run his own train with his own remote independent of the other over the same rails. Hopefully they can run behind each other, pass at passing sidings, etc without special wiring each using his own remote. Given, that you have access to the TMCC system, all you would need to do is get additional remote units. EACH remote unit WOULD be able to control any of the trains. And, you can also set the remote up with a specific identity so that they can only control certain trains. (Again unless you plan on purchasing the MTH TIU unit, dont get a Protosound 1 OR 2, stay with the TMCC engines.I've heard that only one remote can be used at one time even though it can control many engines. This goes for both the DCS and TMCC systems? Is this true? No, you can use multiple remotes at the same time. Routinely, my son and I will have 4 remotes in operation. 2 DCS remotes which each one will control any engine on the track, all the accessories, and all the switches. A TMCC remote which will only control the TMCC engines. And, the Legacy remote will control the Lionel Legacy engines, and TMCC engines. Bottom line, you could easily have 3 remotes working at the same time with no problem. I was told that the only way to have two people with two separate remotes run two separate trains on the same track is to use both systems at the same time. Not true, with any of the systems you can run multiple remotes at once. DO NOT NEED SEPARATE SYSTEMS! One system (TMCC,Legacy, or DCS), can run multiple remotes at once, of course it has to be remotes compatible with that system. TMCC remote will not work with DCS system or visa/versa. So one person would run his Lionel engine with the TMCC system and the other person could run a separate engine with the MTH DCS system. Actually, if they were wired correctly, the guy with the DCS could run both engines, the guy with TMCC would only be able to run TMCC engines.If this is all true, how would one power the track so both system would work? Not very difficult, on my layout I have a Lionel ZW transformer connected to a MTH TIU (DCS system), then the TIU connected to the track, (2 wires). I have the TMCC command base ground wire attached to the TIU output ground wire, (that is connected to the track.) Also, how much track could be powered with a single power source? This is the "tricky" part, because both systems are dealing with a high frequency signal on the track the number of track junctions becomes critical. I have on a 16x20 layout (essentially an oval), power drops at the apex of each curve. I would probably have to run power leads to track that is far away from the main power source. What is far away? less than a 50 feet? Shouldn't be a problem, as long as you run both wires, and avoid using a ground buss. There is a lot of good information avialble on wiring. Also, many people here who would be happy to help with questions, etc. Is any of this possible? Absolutely ! Am I asking for too much? NO, hope I may have helped some.Thank you all!Mickey
1. Can the ProtoSound 1.0 engine be upgraded to ProtoSound 2.0 and, if so, about how much would it cost? Yes, but in MY opinion, I dont think I would do it. Reason is by the time you buy a Proto 1.0, then the upgrade kit. You are very close to the purchase price of a new engine with 2.0 in it originally. And the detail on the newer engines is for the most part better than what was on the 1.0 engines. IF a specific train had some sentimental value than that is different, OR if their was a specific engine you wanted and couldn't find the 2.0 version.
2. If the answer to question 1 is yes, then the upgraded engine will run just like the newer engines that come with the ProtoSound 2.0 system, right? Yes, for the most part. But the new 2.0 engine will usually have some specific sounds that are typical for THAT engine. You will be able to download sound files after upgrading a 1.0 engine. But, that can be laborous, dependent upon how comfortable you are on the computer.
3. One major objective I have is to have each of two grandsons run his own train with his own remote independent of the other over the same rails. Hopefully they can run behind each other, pass at passing sidings, etc without special wiring each using his own remote. Given, that you have access to the TMCC system, all you would need to do is get additional remote units. EACH remote unit WOULD be able to control any of the trains. And, you can also set the remote up with a specific identity so that they can only control certain trains. (Again unless you plan on purchasing the MTH TIU unit, dont get a Protosound 1 OR 2, stay with the TMCC engines.
I've heard that only one remote can be used at one time even though it can control many engines. This goes for both the DCS and TMCC systems? Is this true? No, you can use multiple remotes at the same time. Routinely, my son and I will have 4 remotes in operation. 2 DCS remotes which each one will control any engine on the track, all the accessories, and all the switches. A TMCC remote which will only control the TMCC engines. And, the Legacy remote will control the Lionel Legacy engines, and TMCC engines. Bottom line, you could easily have 3 remotes working at the same time with no problem.
I was told that the only way to have two people with two separate remotes run two separate trains on the same track is to use both systems at the same time. Not true, with any of the systems you can run multiple remotes at once. DO NOT NEED SEPARATE SYSTEMS! One system (TMCC,Legacy, or DCS), can run multiple remotes at once, of course it has to be remotes compatible with that system. TMCC remote will not work with DCS system or visa/versa. So one person would run his Lionel engine with the TMCC system and the other person could run a separate engine with the MTH DCS system. Actually, if they were wired correctly, the guy with the DCS could run both engines, the guy with TMCC would only be able to run TMCC engines.
If this is all true, how would one power the track so both system would work? Not very difficult, on my layout I have a Lionel ZW transformer connected to a MTH TIU (DCS system), then the TIU connected to the track, (2 wires). I have the TMCC command base ground wire attached to the TIU output ground wire, (that is connected to the track.) Also, how much track could be powered with a single power source? This is the "tricky" part, because both systems are dealing with a high frequency signal on the track the number of track junctions becomes critical. I have on a 16x20 layout (essentially an oval), power drops at the apex of each curve. I would probably have to run power leads to track that is far away from the main power source. What is far away? less than a 50 feet? Shouldn't be a problem, as long as you run both wires, and avoid using a ground buss. There is a lot of good information avialble on wiring. Also, many people here who would be happy to help with questions, etc. Is any of this possible? Absolutely ! Am I asking for too much? NO, hope I may have helped some.
Good Luck and enjoy, it sounds like you will have a lot of fun!!
Don
You guys are great! Don, thanks for your in depth response. I think I'm getting it little by little.
All we have right now is a Lionel conventional 4-6-4 and a few freight cars. We have a 25 Watt transformer. We have been buying 027 switches and track. We have a lot of 027 straight and curved track, about 18 027 switches. We have a fair amount of 042 curves and just a couple 042 switches. We're buying more 042 curves and switches when we can. The objective is to use minimum 042 curves on the "main line" and use the 027 stuff where it won't matter that much. We are setting up in a 27 x 15 carpeted family room but the boys want to run out of the room into a couple of adjacent bedrooms so that's the part where we can't see from the main room. By the time the track gets to the furthest turn-around it could be 70 feet. (OK, I admit it, this is something I always wanted as a kid and now I have two grandsons to use as an excuse.) The part in the main room is semi-permanent. The other track is for two or so days at a time.
Bottom line - I would like to be able to run all makes of engines remotely with two or more separate remotes. We don't have any engines or remote equipment yet but will be purchasing them as we can.
I'm negotiating with someone who has a number of items that might work. One is a 2-6-6-6 (MTH 20-1117LP) C&O Allegheny with ProtoSound 1.0. It's hardly used. I really like the articulated type engines but don't have to have this particular one. First of all, I guess I really wouldn't need to upgrade it to ProtoSound 2.0 if I don't need to to run it remotely. As to downloading upgrades, my son, the boy's dad, is very knowledgeable and could help with that.
Also available is a Z-4000 transformer but no DCS equipment.
He has the basic TMCC equipment.
He has both Lionel and MTH engines we might be interested in.
I think I understand the basic wiring. I don't know what a ground buss is. Is it just a single wire that runs to various points as a ground? Would 18 or 16 gauge speaker wire work OK to run the power and ground to the end of the distant track? I'm trying to keep the wiring to a minimum because it has to lay on the carpet. That's another reason for using remotes rather than blocks. Plus, if we had accessories at various places, I think we could run them off the power in the track as the power would be constant.
A new 4-6-6-4 Challenger steam engine runs $700 in the 2010 MTH catalog. I think I can get this Articulated 2-6-6-6 for around $400. That's what one just went for on ebay, $440. I can't find the upgrade kit price on the MTH website. The site doesn't seem to work properly. Or it could be me. I found a steam upgrade kit via Google and it's about $170. If, in fact, I found the right thing. Actually, all I want to be able to do is run the engines remotely. And whatever sound we get would be fine. Oh yes, and be able to use the remote coupler feature on the engines if they have them. We aren't after prototypical effects. We just want to have fun.
Perhaps all we need is the Z-4000 and the DCS system with several remotes. I don't think there is any need for the TMCC equipment.
Thanks, I really appreciate the time you guys take to help us, Mickey
Proto Sound:
Proto Sound 1 is, in reality, a modified reverse board with "QSI" sound. Some units will even have a "QSI" sticker on the PC Board. In the early days, "QSI people worked on the repair work at TCA York. "DCS" has nothing to do with PS-1, it's conventional control.
Proto Sound 2 is a full digital control system called "DCS" (Digital Command System) with full sound. It can run with limited features in Conventional Control but requires a "DCS Remote" and "DCS Track Interface" units (list price $299) to access full motion control in scale miles per hour and all the sound features.
Proto Sound Upgrade Kits for ether Steam or Diesel (different kits) list for $180 (MTH Club Members can buy it for $150). It contains every thing you need: All new wiring, speaker, stacking type PC boards, all new light bulbs, 3 volt rechargable battery, brackets and hardware, and a 40 page installation manual. Most connections are plug-in, some Drilling is required. You will need a PC computer to download, from the MTH Web site, the proper control and sound files. (Free) Then download the files to the the locomotive by way of the Track Interface Unit.
The upgraded PS-2 is 100% the same as the factory locomotive, I've done 5 of them for my "G Gauge" railroad.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
OK, so if I understand this correctly the 2-6-6-6 with ProtoSound 1.0 cannot be controlled remotely? To do so I would need to upgrade it to ProtoSound 2.0 and get the DCS system. The DCS system will not run the 2-6-6-6 as it is now with just the ProtoSound 1.0 in it.
Thanks for the ProtoSound 2.0 upgrade pricing.
By the sound of all this we might be better off, like you guys have sort of already said, to just go with a new engine with ProtoSound 2.0. The upgrade way is about $120 cheaper.
Thanks, Mickey
MTH Web Site, click on the third photo along the bottom "Digital Command System DCS".
Page opens, upper left corner, click on 3rd item down, "PS2 Upgrades"
Price and story of kit. When you click on the kit name (Steam or Diesel) at the top, it opens up the entire Installation Manual for you to read and print if desired.
Don U, thank you. Got to the information just fine.
They don't say but I have to guess MTH Club membership is for one year, right?
Thanks again, Mickey
stay away from MTH. More headaches then there worth.
Doofus stay away from MTH. More headaches then there worth.
This is how the "flame wars" start. MTH is fine all you have to do is follow some basic concepts. Wiring is no more difficult, and dollar for dollar the system is less expensive than TMCC, when you add remote switch and accessory control.
I have and run Conventional, TMCC, Legacy, and DCS. They ALL run fine and are great fun! (I do not have to have one or the other on independently, they are ALL operational, ALL the time, when I power up my layout. (with 1 master "power on" switch.)) Most of the time I use ONLY the DCS controller to run ALL my engines, switches, and accessories! Can't do that with the other systems.
Mickey, You will find people with personal preferences for one or the other, and a few people that suggest all. You will need of course to make your own assessment and choices based upon your situation. The best advice is go to a trains store or somewhere you can get the "feel" of each for yourself. The forums are somewhat skewed with slanted views. This forum is for the most part TMCC oriented, OGR is more DCS oriented, and another one is Conventional.
I would suggest getting a small area set up first, say the living room. Then once you are familiar with command control, begin to expand to the other areas. Also, dependent upon your mid or longer term plans will have a dramatic impact on what you want to do.
My sequence was:
- TMCC first, and was estatic! Primary reason was local hobby shop did not like MTH because of business issues. And was verry verry biased.
- Then as a result of this Forum (specifically Chief Eagles, he had recommended both), I looked at MTH at a different shop. And was really impressed with the quality of the engines, cars, etc.. when I compared them to the same price range Lionel offered. I then added the DCS system.
- Built a permanent layout, and found I could control all my switches more economically with DCS. (10 switches & 10 accessories on one unit (AIU). Compared to 4 switches, and 4 accessories with the TMCC unit. ALSO, that I could control the TMCC engines and features with the DCS remote, as well as the MTH engines. Couldn't do it the other way. (BTW my accessories are mostly post war Lionel, I also have some MTH, KLine, and even non train intended items. (A building from Lemax which I turn on and off with my DCS controller.)
- Then because of the Scale size Big Boy engine offered by Lionel, I opted for Legacy system. Easily integrated into my layout. And, control that with DCS as well. I use the Legacy controller occasionally and enjoy it. Legacy will control TMCC and Legacy engines but NOT the MTH engines. I still am happy I have it and looking forward to new features it will offer.
Don't be intimidated, its all rather simple, and no great effort. The only thing DCS is sensitive to is clean track, (clean mine once a year), and good wiring connections. Some people get confused with "Star Wiring" versus "Home Run" wiring.
Home Run is essentially out and back, old conventional track wiring method. Sometimes using a ground bus, running the duration of the layout, with spurs occasionally going to the track, for ground. And separate power wires to each track connection.
Star Wiring is simply running parallel wires to the various track locations, all emitting from a centralized location. Does require maintaining which rail is the "common" rail and maintaining that consistently. (Which is just a good practice anyway, provides for "activating" accessories when a car is present, etc.)
Also a lot of good reference material available.
Definitely check both systems BEFORE making up YOUR mind.
"Buss" is a misspelling of "bus", which is a wire that goes everywhere (short for the Latin dative omnibus, "to all", the same word as the large passenger vehicle). For a large layout, which yours will effectively be, buses require far less wire than home-runs. I can't speak about the need for star wiring for DCS; but it seems like it could be expensive with a 70-foot track.
As a (very rough) rule of thumb, the track itself is comparable to 16 AWG copper wire. So 16 or 18 AWG (4 and 6.3 milliohms per foot) is likely to be disappointing. I think you will find that something like 12 AWG (1.6 milliohms per foot) is called for. You can get stranded or solid (not so good for a floor layout) 14, 12, and 10 AWG (2.5, 1.6, and 1 milliohm per foot) in a variety of colors at most home-improvement stores. There is no electrical difference between stranded and solid.
Aside from keeping the voltage drop to a minimum, it is very important that your wire be able to carry safely the maximum current that your transformer can put out before its overcurrent protection (fuse, circuit breaker, or something electronic) trips. For 5 amperes, use at least 20 AWG; for 10, 16 AWG; for 15, 14 AWG; for 20, 12 AWG.
Connecting heavy wire to lockons is difficult if not impossible. It is however safe to use a few short inches of smaller wire--but no smaller than the lockon will accept--as a tap between the lockon and the feeder wire. You can splice the (two) bus wire end(s) and the tap together with a wire nut.
Bob Nelson
Who in the heck wants DCS????
I run both. TMCC/Legacy and DCS. I run them on the same track, different tacks, in and out, behind and all around each other. No relays, switches or whatever. Never had a problem. Just runs some PS@ engiens that sat on the shelf for over a year. No battery problems. I'm buying mainly MTH engines now as they are making lots of NS diesels. For several years, bought mainly Lionel NS diesels. I recommend you save and install both systems. HAVE FUN.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
Unfortunately it's a ways to a hobby shop that not only sells the remote systems but can demonstrate them. Probably at least two hours.
I don't want to beat this to death. But I want to make sure I understand. An MTH engine with only ProtoSound 1.0 CANNOT be controlled with a DCS remote, correct? The person that has the Z-4000 tells me that I could use a remote with the Z-4000 that will mimic the commands of the Z-4000. So he's saying that I could run an engine with just ProtoSound 1.0 remotely. However, thinking about this, that means I would be variably changing the voltage to the track and therefore not really "using" the features of "real" command control AND, more importantly, I COULD NOT control engines independently on the same circuit (block) with separate remotes. If this is true, I think I'm getting the picture. In order to run two engines with two separate remotes I MUST have ProtoSounds 2.0 or the TMCC system. ProtoSound 1.0 is only sound. ProtoSound 2.0 is upgraded sound AND includes circuitry for DCS. You guys already told me this.....
Boy, you guys are helping me a lot.
Boy it's a good thing my wife isn't home right now. I'm supposed to be painting window trim. Can't get away from this computer.
What's the max amps the TMCC and/or DCS systems put into the track?
Interesting what you said Bob about track being roughly the same as 16 AWG wire.
Reminded me of something I'm trying. This probably has been done before but, anyway, here's my story for some older track we have. Tubular track, I crimped the ends of the rails but they still seemed to be a bit loose when pushed together using the regular steel 027 size pins. I took some 12 gauge copper wire from my copper recycle bucket, cut it into 1-1/2 inch lengths, flattened 1/2 inch on each end just enough so it fits snugly in the tubular track. 10 gauge is too thick for 027 but might be perfect for 031. 12 gauge wire is a little loose in 027 track but the flattening part fixes that. I flattened the ends so they both are flattened on the same plane so when pushed into both pieces of track the flattened parts are horizontal and not vertical. That way they fit snugly and don't tend to slide down into the vertical slit of the rail. I tried using these copper pins on all three rails but found the tracks don't line up as well as when using the steel pins so I only use the copper on the center rail. Wheels have to run on the outside rails but not on the center. I found that this made a much tighter fit between the older rail pieces. In fact, I strung four sections of straight track together with these tighter joins and will probably leave them together when taking the layout apart. The steel pins on the outside rails keep the two tracks in alignment and the center rail with the copper pin keeps them tight together. The more you flatten the ends of the coper pins the tighter they get in the rail. You have to experiment a little. I'm using this track for about ten feet at the back of the layout and so far it's working just fine.She's home, gotta run. Actually she's a good sport about all this.
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