Obsessive Conpulsive Disorder with F3 portholes?

[Fordiesel69]

Can someone clue me in as to why people dwell over "Original" F3 portholes?  I see so many people mention it on their ebay ads, and I even saw 4 originals sell for a small fortune.  I understand people want original stuff, but I see no big deal when the originals are incomplete and yellow why somone would spend a furtune for 2 lenses when you can buy new ones cheap. 

Did someone publish a collector book and decide to mention missing or repro portholes take away substantial value? 

[lionelsoni]

That's the way collectors would look at it, yes.

As a runner, I'm glad there are collectors around, to supply us with old trains in good condition when their collections are sold.

[sir james I]

Collectors want all original parts. Some pay a small fortune just for empty boxes.

[Train-O]

Fordiesel69,

If, affordable, then original, even though the original porthole lenses turn a yellowish color, due to their makeup, with time.  I am not a chemist to be able to tell what goes into the making of a porthole lens and what causes their discoloration, besides time, light, heat, etc..

Most times, reproduction parts just AIN'T right!  Some, maybe are close to the original, but they and most others just AIN'T right!

Ralph

 

[servoguy]

 This is why I gave up collecting and became a runner.  When I hear that someone has a 57 Chevy with matching numbers, I think about all the ways to forge the numbers to make them match.  How do you prove authenticity with collectible stuff?  I would rather buy the stuff that no one else wants, repair and lube it and run it.  I bought a whistle tender on Sunday that had a cracked shell and was somewhat rusty.  I have another identical tender without the whistle which is not rusty at all and the shell is almost perfect.  It is going to get the whistle.  I am going to have about $3 in this tender when it is all done.

I buy 022 switches for $4 and repair them and upgrade them.  I bought 9 more on Sunday for less than $4 each. 

I am not interested in collecting stuff to keep in boxes in the closet.  I have some of that now, but I may sell the collectible stuff and buy more stuff to run.

Bruce Baker

[RockIsland52]

Replacement portholes can be glazed to look like a weathered postwar original, including the yellowed color.

If you price original postwar Lionel pieces like the F3 in a true C6 or better condition you will understand why many folks throw their hands up in the air and go out and buy a Williams repro AA or ABA new......or 2.....which is fine for the operator, not the collector.  Then there are operators like myself who simply like to run old stuff for the nostalgia and originality, moderate cosmetic imperfections acceptable..   

I have been watching original postwar Lionel SF Warbonnet 2343s for a couple of years, but I just can't bring myself to pull the trigger because of price for the really clean pieces.  Mechanicals can be brought up to snuff, but I don't have the patience, experience, or the skills to do a shell repaint to complete the deal.  And the repaint dumps the market value, regardless of how good it comes out.  Dreams, angst, and lust are part of the fun of the hobby for me.

There is a lot of very attractive newer repro stuff out there.      

Jack

[servoguy]

 You are right, Jack.  There is a lot of nice stuff for sale new or only slightly used, and the prices are good.  25-30 years ago, the prices of Lionel stuff dropped by 50%.  People had been paying outrageous amounts for a box of junk, and when Lionel and others started producing nice new stuff, the old stuff became worth a lot less.  When you think about it, the only person who can look at a collectible piece and appreciate it is the owner and another collector.  Anyone else would be just as impressed by a new piece that looked pretty. 

Bruce Baker

[RockIsland52]

Laz posted pictures of his new El Capitan Warbonnets (F7s?) October 2008 which got me to question my intelligence holding out for the postwar F3 AA 2343s.  All this time I could have been running and enjoying mechanically, functionally, and cosmetically perfect units. Am I dumb or what?    Don't answer that.

Each to his own, the beauty of the hobby.  

Jack.

[wyomingscout]

RockIsland52

repaint dumps the market value, regardless of how good it comes out.

 

 

Jack is right about that, but for the 'runner', who cares?  We're running them, not collecting.  Some guys do an excellent job of weathering even new units.  Collectors probably hate that.

I bought a nice, at least C6, Santa Fe AA 2343 just last year.  Thought I got a good deal at $300.  Like many my age, I always wanted one as a kid.  Now I have it.  Not very prototypical running new MTH Railking passenger cars, but I love it.  As far as I know, the units have original portholes, but I really don't care since I bought them to run.

Maybe in another 50 years my (likely to inherit them) grandson may care.  Hopefully they will still be running & he'll want to keep them, too.

Charlie

[mdainsd]

Because originals deserve the best! LOL

[brianel027]

I'm with Bruce in that I'm not a collector nor a picky rivet counter. I'm thankful I'm able to find affordable trains to run and have fun with.

There will always be purists and collectors for collecting sake. Nothing wrong with that either. But the big high priced collector days are over as we once knew them are over and probably over forever.

Some items will always command top dollar, but not like it was even a decade ago. Not only has the market changed but the demographic of the hobby has too. And for the most part, that demographic is getting older and older.  Really, it's only been the past few years that Lionel has really made a very strong push towards starter sets and marketing them as such.

Many years ago, when we were kids and had trains, for most of us it was OUR layout and dad helped us. Today for the most part, it's DAD's (in other words, OURS again) layout and the kids help. All of us, to one degree or another, are buying back our childhood memories, be it precise originals, reissues, reproductions or current models. Nothing wrong with any of that.

I've said this before and it goes well beyond this hobby. We Americans are spoiled. It's a Burger King "have it your way right now" culture. If you can't afford it, just buy it on credit.... you deserve it. It wasn't like this years ago. People bought what they could afford. Now we have individual and collective debt that staggers the mind. Then there are those who say "if Lionel makes more affordable starter trains, they won't be making the trains I want." Talk about a selfish perspective.

I give thanks that I have an attitude of being content. I like the lower end trains I have, and I don't need better. I don't use command control and I guarantee I have as much fun as anyone else who does. I repaint a lot, but much of it didn't have much "collector" value to begin with, so no real loss.

For me, the big problem comes when others try to dictate to me what is right and what isn't right about the trains. What company is better or what operating system is better. Too often, those debates are more bias and opinion than sheer fact.

I've had this arguement too many times. One time at a train show, some TCA guy was lecturing me how I shouldn't repaint because it ruins the so-called collector value. So I said fine, give me $200 for this train car and I won't repaint it. Frustrated, he angrily said, "that car will never be worth more than $10." I smiled and said "Case closed. Jury verdict in my favor. I win. It's gonna be repainted."

That guy was right on one point though... 15 years later I can still find that train car for under $10.

Everyone should just enjoy the hobby as they see fit for themselves as Jack said. In the decade to come, the market is going to be flooded with older trains for sale from families trying to dispose of train collections they have no interest in. The rules of supply and demand are going to prevail and prices are not going higher, save for the few exceptional pieces.

 

[Anonymous]

mdainsd

Because originals deserve the best! LOL

 

mdainsd,

              That is very impressive.

When I bought my 2343s in July 2007, all of the original portholes were gone.  While original portholes would be nice, I am very happy with the snap in repros. 

[DMUinCT]

I'm a collector, I have a 2354 New York Central A-B-A in full "excellent".  I need one original porthole, I'll look at York, some are darker than others. Some day I'll find a matching one.

The fun of collecting !

[RockIsland52]

Brianel.......you have my number.  I probably have less stuff than most, all from childhood.  It's the nostalgia thing, Postwar train era, personal memories of times and people that can't be replicated with $, and the soothing joy of operating. 

I don't repaint.  Based on my former experience with modelling, I realize that with the help and guidance like yours and others, plus time and patience, I could do a respectable job.  I am not afraid of touch ups but do almost none.  To me, the value in what I have and run is not measured in an Ebay completed listing.  Sure, like everyone else I like to see what my stuff is going for.......had I not run the bejesus out of it.  Or had Santa selected that versus this. 

Factor in that starting at the age of 4, I personally "participated" in every imperfection with my Dad and my friends.  Each mark has a story behind it that no one else can or ever will be able to fully appreciate or understand.  For touch up I have a collection of small glass bottles of correct paint and an impressive array of fine brushes.....that I have not opened or used.

Northwoods has quite a collection of prewar AF I pour over.  His approach is almost primarily "as it was, so it shall remain."  He too shares the imaginative 'I ponder the people, the period, and the miles this piece has travelled.' The combination of the actual item and it's condition despite the decades is what fascinates me.  I don't mean to single out Northwoods because what I mean to say is that I admire the many who share their pieces on SPF or through the various threads.  

So a significant part of my enjoyment in the hobby lies in seeing and admiring what others have and run.  Train porn so to speak.  And that includes every era and brand.  Including the newer stuff.....Cindy Crawford without the mole, so to speak.

As in my choice of automobiles, I don't much concern myself about either cryptic comments or thoughts because what I choose floats my boat.  When the average non-train person visiting my home marvels at condition of my stuff and simply enjoys watching the trains run, and can appreciate what it is for what it is, a small part of them sees and feels what I see and feel.

Now I need to find out who owns that string of eight F3 SF Warbonnets.... 2333s, 2343s, and the ones in the rear with the WB red roofs and skirts.  Now that is just sick.....in a good sense.  

Jack