CTT 700E Restoration project

[cabooseboy]

I just wanted to say i enjoyed the 700E restoration article in the current issue but am disappointed with a few things. Why a 700E???...While the article did not state what you paid at York for the carcus you got you also did not list what parts were required to restore it or the total cost of the project. I know by just looking around there is a slim to none chance of me being able to afford a restored 700E the chances are not much better i could afford a restoration project of this fine post war icon. I would really like to see more articles on restoration projects, especially those that might be more affordable for those of us who enjoy the hobby but have less means to do it with. Now am i way off base here.....i would like to hear from others and thier opinions on this subject. Great article CTT and thanks for the effort.....

[Texas Pete]

 I agree that the cost of the project should have been included in the article.

Pete

 

[lionelsoni]

The 700E is prewar, not postwar.  Anyone planning to restore one should be aware that it was not meant for tinplate track, despite being shown that way in the CTT article.  It had small flanges intended for scale T rail, which were enlarged to tinplate size on the 773 (except for the trailing truck).

[hscsltb]

Nice article but I wish there were more pictures of the work in progress.

[cabooseboy]

Hey...thanks for the correction and information....i always thought of it aa a postwar engine.

[fredswain]

I've been watching ebay for 700e parts and the amount of money those things go for is incredible. A complete engine is fairly good condition will fetch well over $1500 with $2000+ not being uncommon. I have a few random parts and am always looking to acquire more to hopefully build my own one day. However I don't care if I mix parts from various Hudson's that were made over the years or even using repro parts. I'm not looking for monetary value. I just want a scale sized Hudson. Last week I saw a 700E frame with just main drivers, side rods, and the motor and nothing else, sell for over $600. A repro boiler sold for over $300. A frame alone will typically fetch $300+. Someone has individual drivers listed for $85. Pickup rollers are listed at $35. There is almost no way to buy or build/restore one of those cheaply unless you find someone that has no clue what they've got. I suspect the expense is the main reason why prices weren't listed. It would probably discourage most people from trying. Piecing one together from random parts will probably cost you more than you can just pick up a completed one for. It is for this reason that some people will completely part them out rather than sell them whole. They'll get more for it this way.

[Joe Hohmann]

My thought was how many will ever be in a position to use this article? Reminded me of a long "how to" article that appeared in OSR (pre-OGR) in the 1980s...how to build a T-1 Duplex from scratch. It ran for 3 issues, and took up many pages. The magazine admitted, much later, that to their knowledge, no one ever built one.

[cabooseboy]

Joe....You make an excellent point!!! How many out there have a 700E just laying around out there that this article would be of any use to? Maybe there are some out there who are lucky enough or rich enough to have one but i would think most of them would never dream of tearing into it to refurb it due to the chance of breaking it and thus having it lose value. There are plenty of other examples out there that would have been more useful to the general readership than to have a restoration article written about than a 700E....whats next....a 400E???? LOL

[tcox009]

The methods could just as easily be used on a pre-war 224.  Most of the restorations I have done are on pre-war tinplate and the method is the same whether I am restoring a 812 gondola or a 263 engine.  This article used some different methods than I have used and I will look forward to trying them.  Lately the trick has been to find something cheap enough and complete enough to restore.  I spent several years restoring a pair of pre-war passeger cars from the Blue Train.  By the time I got through I think I spent more than I could have bought a pair for in exc 

[brianel027]

Cabooseboy, I have not seen the article yet. And while I agree that many will not relate to a restoration project with a rare piece, there are basic principals and rules in restorations that can and do apply to other models as well.

But I will take heat with a couple comments you made on the other magazine forum.

 

It seems to me more and more that CTT caters to the more "affluent" o-gauger the the joe averages out here....OGR seems to be geared more toward guys like me!!!!

 

I've been back in the hobby for nearly 20 years. Both magazines try to reach a broad spectrum of interests and modelers... that's how they sell magazines. But over the years OGR has absolutely leaned more heavily towards the expensive scale side, so you are wrong about that assessment.

 

Unfortunately the OGR forum only archives for the last 6 months or a year at best. Here's a sampling of some of the more ignorant comments (my opinion - I save the best of the dumbest) made over years gone by:

 

"If Lionel makes more starter sets, then they won't make more high end products for guys like me."

 

"027 items should be dropped immediately. They're all junk anyways."

 

"K-Line starter sets and locos like the S-2 are all worthless crap."

 

"Lionel starter sets are made to break after you run them a few times."

 

"MPC is more plastic crap which is what Lionel still puts out. How 'bout more full scale Legacy products.... that's what we want."

 

"If you are not running high end trains with command control, then you simply do not know how to correctly run trains."

 

And other worthy commentary such as Lionel is "prostituting" themselves by being in Wal-Mart and the current sets sold in department stores are "blasted things."

 

No wonder Lionel CEO Jerry Calabrese said Lionel would never hire determined hobbyists, as they are not able to put their own wants and desires behind what is best for the company and the market.

 

I find this forum much more active than others where ideas and thoughts are exchanged and banter does not get out of hand.

 

Yeah, while the other forum is more active for certain, the above comments show there is intolerance amongst some for any product that does not appeal to their selfish wants. I am much more understanding of kids as I expect them to behave childishly. I expect much more of adults.

 

Plus while many deny it, there is an obvious pro-MTH slant to the other forum. It might not be a moderator or owner policy, but it is there. There are many in denial to the fact that starter sets and related lower end spectrum products STILL sell in quantities that dwarf the higher end products. And relating to the comment about starter sets breaking, I read far far far more complaints about high end products being DOA or breaking soon after purchase, even though Lionel sells far more lower end products.

 

All the train forums offer pros and cons, as do both major 3-rail magazines. The hobby today is more diverse than 20 years ago, and therefore so are the opinions of what is good and what isn't. But I personally find this forum and Classic Toys Trains magazine to be much more friendly to the basic traditional train operator. And while we may not be as vocal, there are far more conventional traditional operators than are high end ones.

 

The magazines today like Classic Toy Trains are in a tough place... to try and please the greatest number of readers without ignoring any one group too much, all in a product market that is more diverse than ever. And while convention traditional operators are the majority, which is also OLD news. What grabs attention is news that hasn't been covered before: the new products, the new features, and the new technology.

 

So when I see an article in CTT that doesn't appeal to me, I don't get mad. I just wait more eagerly for the next issue to come. The editors know there are guys like me out there and they have to please us too if they want us to keep buying the magazine. 

[brianel027]

I apologize for the weird spacing above. For some reason, when you spell check in MSWord, and then paste it back, the text gets grouped as one solid paragraph and the ONLY way I can figure to get it apart is to insert double returns.... single won't work.

[Doofus]

 Brianel, excellent post. OGR is a pro MTH/Mike Wolf forum. I dislike their magazine and do not it. I buy CTT only. CTT and Model Train Journal are great forums. Plus you do not have to kiss anyones butt to be able to post (Alan Miller).

[laz 57]

I heard it through the grapevine(is that a song?) that the 700E will be in the new Lionel 2010 vol 1 catalog?  Stay tuned?

laz57

[cwburfle]

laz 57

heard it through the grapevine(is that a song?) that the 700E will be in the new Lionel 2010 vol 1 catalog? 

As a collector, I guess I don't understand why anyone, including some fellow collectors, would rather have a "700E" that is restored with lots of reporduction parts and repainted. I'd rather have a Modern era 18005 hudson. Those engines were sold both with and without a dsplay case. They are plentiful, and can be had in the 500 - 700 dollar range if one shops carefully.
Since I prefer E-units, this one if preferable to anything they might make now. I guess those who like command control might be excited by another reproduction.

[hscsltb]

Brianel,thank you for another excellent post.Well thought out and right on point.

[dogdoc]

I restore the less expensive pre war and post war steamers on occasion and can gleen some useful info from that article. As far as a 700e , I picked up one of Lionels 1990  repros 18005 for less than $ 400.00 (best I can remember)  as new last year on ebay . It looks and runs great on my tinplate layout. I could care less about spending a couple thousand dollars on a loco I cannot even run on my layout but I am more of an operator than collector.

[DMUinCT]

To add a little more.

700E Cab Number 5344

Pre WW II 1937 to 1942 introduced at $75 --- (in the 1930s the average factory worker made .50 cents per hour, a 700E could be a month's pay --- complete O-27 Train Sets started at $8.95)  Price in later catalogs reduced to $65.  Full Scale Locomotive and Tender, runs on "O-72" track only.  Air Whistle in Tender, (smoke had not been invented), flanges on all drivers, scale "cow catcher", scale pilot wheels, full hand applied piping.   Negitive, much of the Boiler, Frame, and Steam Chest castings developed Zink Casting Failure, be carefull to check for warped and cracking. (I would want to inspect any I might want to buy, not buy on line)

763E 

Pre WW II 1937 to 1942 introduced at $37.50.  Same Boiler, Drivers, and Frame as the 700E but without any hand applied detail except Hand Rails, Bell, and Whistle. Some "Valve Gear" linkage also missing.  Used the non-scale #263 Tin Tender.   Production later switched to the 2226 Die-cast Tender. Found in Both Black and in Gray.

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773LTS 

 Post War, 1950 the 763 comes back as the 773 with the die-cast 2426W Tender. Smoke is added, the Center Driver is Blind (no Rim flange), the Cow Catcher is raised 1/8 inch to clear "O" gauge switches, and the use of under sized pilot wheels allow "O-32" track operation.  In the Mid 1960s the 773LTS returns but with the 2671 type plastic tender.

 

18005  Scale Hudson Cab Number 5340

Same "Full Hand Applied Detail" on an inproved 700E Boiler casting.  Center Drive is Blind (no flanged rim), Cow Catcher is raised the 1/8 inch, and the under sized Pilot Truck is installed (Scale Pilot truck is made Optional from Lionel).  It will operate on "O-42" or larger Track Radius.  Full Scale, pre-war type 700T Tender.  Both Scale and Lionel Couplers sent for Tender.