Hi all. As I put my first train together, what should I know about the difference between O and O-27? I know they can work together on the same track, but will O cars and O-27 cars look strange on the same train because they are different sizes? What else should I watch out for?
Thanks!
Welcome!
O and O-27 refers to track. O gauge Lionel track has a taller, and wider rail profile. The width between the rails is the same between O and O-27.
Lionel produced cars in Traditional and O Scale formats. Traditional size is smaller, and a not to scale reproduction of a car.
With that being said, scale and traditional cars can be combined. Put the cars together, and see what looks 'right' to you. Some will look out of place. For instance, the older scale wood sided boxcars are smaller and will right paired next to a traditional modern car.
Kurt
PS Nice ride!
Thanks Kurt, I learned something from your answer. I knew that O and O-27 were the same gauge and thought the main difference was the radius of the curve, with O-27 being a tighter curve. I had not realized that there was a height difference for the track.
Since the method of joining the tubular track are the pins, can O and O-27 be combined? It seems to me that they can, without the need for a transition track, since the alignment would be correct due to the pins.
I am curious about this, because we have been considering adding a loop with a wider radius curve.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Simon: Yes and No
If you connect the 'O' track to 'O27' track you may encounter two inconveniences:
1. The pins on the 'O' track are a smidge thicker so 'O27' pins might have to be used at the point that the two sizes come together.
2. The 'O' track will sit higher than the 'O27' so you might have to bury the 'O' track deeper into the roadbed or fill-in under the 'O27' track to create an even ride.
All the best and keep us up-dated.
O27 uses both smaller rail and shorter ties, so it doesn't match up well with O track. (I always thought that was odd, since the smaller ties and track actually look more realistic than the huge O trackage, but maybe that's just me.) If you choose to use tubular track, you really need to pick one or the other. Both are made in varying diameter curves, so you can get for example O-42 track, track with 42" diameter, in either O27 or O style track.
If you're starting a new layout, I'd suggest looking at something like Lionel Fastrack, more realistic and very convenient.
In Lionel Lingo, "Standard O" refers to cars and engines built to full 1:48 scale, and "Traditional O" refers to equipment that is slightly undersized, as was used in their toy train sets in the past. I agree with earlier posts that you kinda have to just go with what looks right. Some "Traditional O" Lionel equipment are pretty close to scale size, and should look fine with the smaller "Standard O" cars, or smaller versions of scale cars from other manufacturers (like say Atlas 36' reefers etc.)
The pins are different diameters so you'll have to pick one or the other and "fudge". I recently saw where someone recommended using the larger O pins and forcing them in, rather than the usual way of using the smaller 0-27 pins and pinching the track down around them. They used to make transition pins in which the ends were of two-different sizes, but I haven't seen them in a while. Some folks just forget the pins at the transition point, except for alignment purposes perhaps, and simply solder the O and O-27 sections together. They still have to shim-up the lower-profile O-27 track.
In any event, whenever the track radii differ, which is frequently the case, such transition-splices need to be made with straight sections only.
In my opinion, direct combinations of O and O-27 track never look completely right, but folks have done it. It works best if the "minority track" can be hidden in a tunnel, under the table (for a helix or something) or in another room, beyond a wall out of sight.
Because tubular track is still relatively cheap, unless I had an otherwise-insoluble space problem, I wouldn't mix the two types of track on a visible portion of the layout. (I have used O for trains and O-27 for trolleys on the same layout, with fairly good results.)
.
While some like to use both O gauge & 027 track on the same track, I prefer to keep 027 seperate and not have to worry about forcing the track pins or track to fit.
One thing I have found true with Fastrac is that it is very expensive and you have to buy extremely expensive little fitter pieces when you try to do a custom layout. I had Fastrac for almost a year before I traded it off for an engine that I liked at a train show.
There is another type of track that I like to use and that is Gargraves track, it looks more realistic and can mate to either; 027, O gauge tubular or Atlas solid rail track with the use of adapter pins, so no forcing things together. Also it has more curve sizes than most other companies offer, 031 to 110 inch curves. Another thing I like about Gargraves switches(the same with Ross Custom Switches) is the motor can be replaced while the track stays in place.
Lee F.
Just starting I would go with 0 if I had the room; most of the new stuff is not as well suited for the 027 as the Post war stuff is. BTW, all my stuff is 027 tubular, but it started when I was a kid 50 some years ago.
One thing about the fast trac that I find nice is the ease of insulating it for isolated blocks, signals, etc. Tubular track is not as easily insulated, in my never to be humble opinion. I've heard good things about Gargraves & would certainly look into it if I were changing track, or just starting.
Whatever you decide, welcome to a great hobby and forum for the info you may need.
Charlie
Thanks all! I did see that GarGraves track in the store which looks very cool and is less expensive, but I'd like my first set-up to be 100% Lionel before I branch out later. Just sort of gives me a warm and fuzzy for now after growing up with the stuff.
I noticed a bunch of huge layouts on YouTube feature GarGraves track so it can't be that bad...
So there is no such thing as an O-27 gauge car, or an O-27 gauge engine. It just refers to the tracks. Got it. Sounds like the differences in the engines/rolling stock is defined rather by "traditional O" or "Standard O".
Thanks. More newbie questions soon...
gillart So there is no such thing as an O-27 gauge car, or an O-27 gauge engine. It just refers to the tracks. Got it. Sounds like the differences in the engines/rolling stock is defined rather by "traditional O" or "Standard O".
You've got some of it! What we have here is a failure to communicate, caused in part by the screwed-up terminology associated with this hobby. The main item, and certainly the clearest, has to do with the track profile and other dimensions; but there certainly is such a thing as an O-27 size car or locomotive, to go along with the other two that you mentioned.
For simplicity, sticking strictly to Lionel. you will find locomotives marked O-27* and cars of a size notably smaller than "traditional O" and considerably smaller than "Standard-O" or "Scale-size." They may not be marked as such, and the size differences may tend to blur into one another, but once you connect an O-27 car to a Standard-O car you'll see exactly what I mean.
Maybe someone will post a picture that illustrates this. I would but I can't. Update: see my post below.
* Some of the Lionel post-war locomotives came marked either O-27 or O. They were the same locomotive, at least as far as external dimensions were concerned, except that the O-27 ones generally had four-digit cab numbers, whereas the O versions had three digits. That illustrates a small portion of the terminological bewilderment of it all.
Mix in other manufactures and other eras, and the confusion multiplies.
It's important to remember than an O-27 engine or call will run on any tinplate track that is O-27 or larger, but that an engine or car that is designed for O gauge (what is often called "O-31" now) won't run on O-27. Some of the bigger traditional Lionel engines (like the Train Master) won't do an O-27 curve or go thru an O-27 switch. Most all scale-sized Standard O are going to need O-31, many require O-36, with some larger cars and engines going up to O-72.
BTW I'm not sure if you could run a loop of O-27 inside of a loop of O-31, which it sounds like you were thinking about?? The one track might just fit inside the other, but there wouldn't be any clearance for the trains. Allowing you to do two loops, one inside the other, isn't why they have O-27 and O-31. You'd need to maybe go up to O-36 (or perhaps find some old Marx O-34 track) to do that.
You could just fit O27 rails inside an O31 circle; but the rail flanges would be overlapping. O27 fits better inside an O34 circle; but anything longer than a Kickapoo still couldn't pass.
A lot of "O31" stuff will actually work on O27. And much that won't can be modified. I run a Train Master, a Big Boy, a 773 Hudson, 60-foot Superliners and an extruded-aluminum baggage car, and 16-wheel flat cars, for example
Bob Nelson
Let's see whether a link to an image will work. If it does, in the panel at the top left corner, the second car from the top would likely be classified as O-27 size, the one below it as Traditional O, and the bottom one as Standard O* aka Scale-size. Some of you may agree that coupling an O-27 size to a scale-size car would look a little peculiar. You can enlarge the images, and might benefit from the text that accompanies them, which shows that the uppermost box car is an American Flyer O-gauge of heaven-knows-what gauge. [See post by ADCX Rob below for further info on American Flyer.]
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=boxcar%20lionel%20O-27%2C%20O%2C%20Standard%20O&aql=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Later on, in the same collection of images, is a panel that does a fair job of comparing different "profiles" of O-gauge track, three by Lionel and one by MTH.
* Not to be confused with "Standard Gauge" which is another size of track and cars altogether.
My apologies to gilart if my question took his original question off track, so to speak, However, thanks to all of you that responded as your answers have been really helpful and informative, My local hobby shop, which is without doubt HO orientated, actually has a decent stock of O scale track. I think that my son Crispy, who has been largely raised watching "I love toy trains" videos, really rather likes the tubular track. So we will pay better attention at the store and look out for some different radius O-27 curves. In the mean time we have plenty to do to get the engine shed build completed.
A-HA! THANKS! Now it all makes sense - I've been putting my first train together one car at a time, and the other day I came home with an "O" 2-Bay Hopper car which looked SO *** BIG! I thought it may have been some sort of mistake. I returned it quite confused. After looking that car up, it appears to be "Standard O", while all of the others I've bought so far are traditional O.
I think I got it now. I think.
bfskinnerLet's see whether a link to an image will work. If it does, in the panel at the top left corner, the second car from the top would likely be classified as O-27 size, the one below it as Traditional O, and the bottom one as Standard O* aka Scale-size. Some of you may agree that coupling an O-27 size to a scale-size car would look a little peculiar. You can enlarge the images, and might benefit from the text that accompanies them, which tells you that the very top box car is an American Flyer O-gauge.
The top car is a Flyer 3/16" scale, S gauge model.
3/16" scale would be S scale, which Gilbert ran on "O" track(& trucks) before the war, and then started selling with S gauge trucks(instead of "O") & 2 rail S gauge track after WWII.
Here is a link to Charles Conley's "O Gauge What" article referenced above.
Rob
No doubt you are right, Rob. The top car seems to have smaller wheels than the bottom three, and the couplers are certainly different. I have never had any American Flyer products; and frankly have never understood their system, except to realize that much of their stuff was S-gauge. One cannot see from these four photos what the gauges are, but the text makes it clear that the bottom three are O-gauge.
What is important for "gillart" and others are the overall dimensional-relationships among the bottom three box cars. The Lionel "O-27 size" is very, very different from the Lionel "Standard-O " size car, and yet both will run on virtually all versions of "O-gauge" track. I'm sure you'll agree.
lionelsoni You could just fit O27 rails inside an O31 circle; but the rail flanges would be overlapping. O27 fits better inside an O34 circle; but anything longer than a Kickapoo still couldn't pass. A lot of "O31" stuff will actually work on O27. And much that won't can be modified. I run a Train Master, a Big Boy, a 773 Hudson, 60-foot Superliners and an extruded-aluminum baggage car, and 16-wheel flat cars, for example
IIRC the problem with the FM Train Master was that it could take an O-27 curve, but not the turnouts because the switches were thrown from inside the curve of the turnout, and the indicator (metal red and green target, or later red plastic insert) would foul the engine due to it's huge overhang.
BTW for younger folks, the "Kickapoo" was a little MPC 0-4-0T engine.
gillart Now it all makes sense - I've been putting my first train together one car at a time, and the other day I came home with an "O" 2-Bay Hopper car which looked SO *** BIG! I thought it may have been some sort of mistake. I returned it quite confused. After looking that car up, it appears to be "Standard O", while all of the others I've bought so far are traditional O.
Now it all makes sense - I've been putting my first train together one car at a time, and the other day I came home with an "O" 2-Bay Hopper car which looked SO *** BIG! I thought it may have been some sort of mistake. I returned it quite confused. After looking that car up, it appears to be "Standard O", while all of the others I've bought so far are traditional O.
Something that can cause trouble in Lionel O gauge is that there are several Lionel (and other manufacturer) engines that are designed for O-31 or O-27 curves but are in fact scale size...so if you get say a Lionel GP-7 or F-3, even if it's labelled "O-27", it's going to be much bigger than the typical O-27 cars, but look fine with Standard O scale cars.
I believe Lionel still makes O-42 tubular track and switches in O-27 style, the idea of O-42 (which IIRC was first produced by K-Line back in the late seventies) was that O-42 was the largest diameter curve you could fit onto a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood. However, there has been some rumor / discussion that Lionel may be phasing out tubular track in favor of just going with Fastrack, which currently only goes down to O-36.
As for Gargraves, the good thing is that it offers flextrack, so you can do custom designs much easier. The bad news in my experience, is that their flextrack can be difficult to cut and work with. I would definetly not recommend it to someone new to the hobby. However, now that they have pre-formed track I would be more likely to use it if I were building a new layout (which I am thinking of doing) but I'd probably end up using Lionel Fastrack just for the convenience and ease of construction...plus I think it looks pretty good, though as a tinkerer I'd probably paint a few ties brown or gray and add a little weathering to the ballast.
I grew up with 031 tubular track and 022 switches, so I am bit partial to tubular track. The nice thing about tubular track is that you can custom fit it to your needs, just cut it with a saw and file tracks smooth and insert track pins. To isolate a block all you need to do is to remove the center track pins and put insulating pins into place. To insulate a section of Lionel tubular track there are two ways to go, one you buy an insulated track section or two you can make an insulated section by taking out one of the outside rails and putting electrical tape on the bottom of the rail and then re-install the rail, also need insulating pins for that section.
Gargraves track is a bit differant than regular tubular track in that all three rails are seperated electrically from each other, so for a conventional layout you would have to supply both outside rails with power from the same transformer terminal screw. However this can also allow you the oppertunity to insulate a section of track to control a block signal light with the outside rail supplying the return path for the circuit when a train goes over that section of track. The other nice thing about Gargraves track is that the switche motors are mounted similar to H.O. style(or real train style) and almost no problems with hang-overs at switches.
If Lionel stops making tubular style track there is at least one other company that is making tubular style track and that is Williams by Bachmann, also there may be other companies that still make tubular track.
Here's my method for cutting tubular track, which I think is easier and faster than sawing and filing and makes no steel filings to get into the locomotives:
Cut down through the railhead and web with tinsnips, leaving the flanges intact. (This will pinch the railhead closed.)
Flex the track to break the rail flanges.
Spread the ends of the rails with a screwdriver from underneath.
Flatten the crease at the top of the railhead with the tip of small long-nosed pliers.
Put a track pin into the rail and pull the railhead back into shape around it by pinching the web back together with your long-nosed pliers. Instead of a track pin, you can use a 3/32-inch punch for O27 or 7/64-inch for O31.
bfskinner The top car seems to have smaller wheels than the bottom three, and the couplers are certainly different. I have never had any American Flyer products; and frankly have never understood their system, except to realize that much of their stuff was S-gauge. One cannot see from these four photos what the gauges are, but the text makes it clear that the bottom three are O-gauge.
The top car seems to have smaller wheels than the bottom three, and the couplers are certainly different. I have never had any American Flyer products; and frankly have never understood their system, except to realize that much of their stuff was S-gauge. One cannot see from these four photos what the gauges are, but the text makes it clear that the bottom three are O-gauge.
In the (late?) 1920's American Flyer began making O gauge three-rail trains, competing with Lionel. By the late thirties they were making undersize but well detailed equipment built to 3/16" = 1 foot. (Of course correct O scale is 1/4" = 1 foot...well at least it is in the US, but that's another story!) It wasn't uncommon for "scale" O modellers to use these engines as they were affordable and looked good (although small).
After WW2 they decided to stick with the 3/16" scale but change the track to the correct gauge for 1:64 scale and began building S scale trains. American Flyer trains therefore, although still toy trains, were in correct scale proportion to their tracks, unlike O gauge toy trains which with a very few exceptions were built undersized.
American Flyer never was as popular as Lionel, and three-railers who wanted to go for more scale trains or smaller trains generally just went to HO scale as that boomed in popularity. Eventually American Flyer was bought out by Lionel, and starting about 30 years ago Lionel began making reproductions of old American Flyer S gauge trains.
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