The remote 027 switches aren't well thought out. I'll just have to keep an eye on the kids when they are running trains.
I don't know what kind of motors are in the diesels I'm thinking about. I think they are can type as they are newer versions. They are the K Line double A units. Each has two motors. They look OK, made in China. I thought some of the parts looked a bit cheap. The pick up rollers aren't as hefty as the old lionel type. The guy selling them said the motors don't draw as much as before. I'm looking at K Line switch engines too with the same double motor set up. Plus I think the overhead stream lighting in the passenger cars might be something new too to cut down on the power draw and to give more even light.
Thanks again,
MS
"However, Lionel seems to have missed the fact that, if you stop with the track voltage on, that is, with the locomotive in neutral, the coils will burn out. If you modify the turnout for external power, without one of the precautions I mentioned, then stopping on the turnout will burn it out regardless of what you do with the track voltage."
I imagine that the Lionel thinking of the day was that most O-27 engines had two-position reverse, and so it wasn't a problem. But add a couple of these turnouts in a row, and run a train across, and you can eat up your available amperage pretty quickly!
Jon
Thanks Jon and Bob, I knew of the anti-derailing mechanism but thought there was some other circuitry that cut that one line off once the switch was thrown. Then it was only activated by the first wheels across it. But I see that every wheel that crosses that part of the switch activates the switch motor. And if a wheel was left on either side of the switch it would close the connection and the switch motor would burn out. I really appreciate that info as we'll have to watch the kids when they are running trains to make sure they don't leave cars on switches.
I also appreciate all the comments on the transformers. I might just pass up the CW-80s and go with a couple of LWs. Seems like there are a ton of the CW-80s available. The LWs are no longer made I take it.
Thanks to all again,
MJS
"First thing, the O-27 anti-derailing feature is always powered, not just when the switch is turned the wrong way."
Let me try to clarify Jon's statement a little: The anti-derailing feature is powered when the turnout is powered; and the turnout is normally powered from the track. So, if you stop a train on the turnout, with the track voltage turned off, there is no problem. I think that was Lionel's reasoning in providing no way to power the turnout externally.
However, Lionel seems to have missed the fact that, if you stop with the track voltage on, that is, with the locomotive in neutral, the coils will burn out. If you modify the turnout for external power, without one of the precautions I mentioned, then stopping on the turnout will burn it out regardless of what you do with the track voltage.
Bob Nelson
First thing, the O-27 anti-derailing feature is always powered, not just when the switch is turned the wrong way. This means you'll get a ton of sparking from the wheels as each car runs over the switch. And as mentioned above, park a train on a switch and you'll melt the switch solenoid. It's just the nature of the beast.
This will NOT happen with Lionel "O-31" "0-22" or FasTrack switches.
Second thing: regarding power requirements of engines and rolling stock: it's not the length of the car that matters, but the number and type of bulbs. Some modern cars are using LED's, which are very easy on your power requirements. But some cars, both old and new, have as many as four incandescent bulbs, which chew up your available wattage VERY quickly.
Regarding your twin-motored diesels: are they open-frame Universal (PullMor) or can-motored engines? A single PullMor will max your 25 watt transformer without a single car. The advice regarding CW-80's is sound. A couple of KW's would give you the kind of power and control you really want!
Your two look to be the same age as my two grandsons. Thanks for the additional info.
No, I'm not sure what I want, it's more like what I need to do what I might want to do. If I can avoid it I don't want to spend the money on something and find it's not enough. The reason I mentioned the two A units both with two motors is I saw them packaged together at a show, they came as a set from K Line. Plus I see one set on eBay that are the two powered A units with 9 passenger cars. Supposedly the passenger cars have overhead steam-lighting which I assume lights the interiors more evenly. So, I just want to make sure that I get transformers that could handle such engines with a string of passenger cars. I also realize the 027 radius track is probably an issue. The items we have so far are 027 switches and tube track with lots of 027 curved track. We have some larger radius track and I plan to get more and a few larger radius switches. They're harder to come by used. And, I have the same thoughts, to use the smaller radius switches and track in yards etc but I would still like to enter those areas if possible with the passenger cars. Maybe for a passing track or station area. I think any passenger car 13.5 inches or less with two wheel trucks will do that. The remote 027 switch motors are what seem to get in the way. Here's the eBay item I am looking at. I wrote and he claims it all will operate on 027 track and negotiate the 027 switches.
http://cgi.ebay.com/K-LINE-GOLDEN-STATE-TWIN-ALCO-WITH-NINE-PASSENGER-CARS_W0QQitemZ160395192327QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item25584c6807
The Lionel LW transformer seems like it would be fine also. I don't think I need a bell button. Plus I understand that those buttons can be added separately somehow. At least a whistle button. I'm thinking of making a control panel that will set on the floor with two transformers at the ends with other controls in the middle. That way the two boys can control their trains separately and reach for other controls between them. I'll try to keep the wiring at a minimum so they don't trip over it
Again, all of you, thanks for your input and thoughts. Any more, I'm all ears.
I will second Bob's suggestion to verify the "G" in the date code on a CW-80. Otherwise, I am a BIG fan of the CW-80. It is very "Young Un Friendly" I have gotten 6 Nephews started in O-Gauge, the youngest can claim to be a "Life long" model railroader, as he got his first locomotive, a Hudson jr, the day he was born, before leaving the Hospital. by the time that he was 18 months old, he had the basic F-N-R cycle figured out, and DEMANED throttle time too, I have run dual motored Lionmaster Challengers with my CW-80's, without trouble, until I coupled up 8 Scale sized passenger cars, that had 4 bulbs per car, didn't work. Do you need 2 dual motered "A" units, you might be surprised what a single dual motored "A" plus a "DUMMY A" will pull.
There is not a lot available new in over 100 watt- 250 watt range. If you don't need the bell button, looking for a good Lionel LW, will give you 125 watts in a nice little transformer, for a reasonable price.
If you are just starting with an 027 set, that likely only comes with 8 curves(plus some straights), consider if you want to limit your self to the 027 curves or not. you could even stay with 027 profile track and use 042, 054 or even 072(by K-Line) curves. 042 switches are also available in 027 profile track. You could use any 027 curves and switches for industrial spurs, and restrict those to just small locomotives and freight cars, the real railroads have a lot of restricted trackage.
Matthew Douglas, with his First locomotive.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Thanks for the heads up on both accounts. I'll see if I can get an answer on the CW-80s. After reading several responses and other threads I'm wondering if I should go with a more powerful transformer than a CW-80. Plus I'd like something that is easy to use by the little hands that will be using them.
On the turnouts, I didn't know that and I appreciate you mentioning that. I was about to try and power them from the accessory terminals. Getting their power from the track isn't a big deal as the power is only needed momentarily. It doesn't seem to make much difference when one of the anti-derailing feature is activated. The power to run a nice engine and passenger cars is more of a concern.
Thank you,
Beware of CW-80 transformers, especially on Ebay, that don't have the letter "G" ahead of the date code. Those models had design problems, that are discussed in numerous topics on the forum. If a seller won't satisfy you that the "G" is there, don't bid.
An O27 turnout is usually designed to be powered only from the track. It can be modified with some difficulty for fixed voltage, but is likely to burn out the first time you park a train on the turnout. So the modification should include either disabling the anti-derailing feature or powering the turnout from a capacitive-discharge circuit instead of an accessory voltage.
"We do have a number of remote control switches and will want to power them and other accessories but I think we can do that off the accessory terminals of whatever we get."
use the current 25 watt transformer you have for the switches and any accessories. This will leave more power to the track on another transformer.
If you purchase a new set in a box it will have a transformer with it.
Just getting into lionel for the grandsons. Bought a used set of 027 so we'll be dealing with the limits of the minimum radius etc. We are currently using an old 25 watt transformer that seems fine except it doesn't have a whistle or bell button etc so we're looking to upgrade to a better transformer. I'd like to eventually have two transformer so each grandson can run his own train on the layout without working off the same transformer. We set up on the carpet floor of a 24 by 15 room and are adding track etc when we can. I've seen a lot of CW-80 transformers on eBay but before buying several I'd appreciate input on them and/or as to what size transformers I should get. We do have a number of remote control switches and will want to power them and other accessories but I think we can do that off the accessory terminals of whatever we get. I'm looking at eventually running a decent passenger set of perhaps 2 double motored A units and a string of as many lighted passenger cars as possible. So, I'd appreciate input on transformers to suit these needs and the size of the layout the room can accommodate.
Secondly, I think the longest car length is 13.5 inches for 027 track and switches. I'd appreciate input on the maximum freight and passenger car length we should consider.
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