I've been using Pledge on my die cast locos and plastic diesel shells since about 1960. No greasy residue, brings the gloss up, and best of all.......the paints has held up.
Washing was with a very mild dish soap/lukewarm water solution. Midew is his problem, though.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
PhillyDukeOK, any suggestions for cleaning the tender and boiler shell of the mildew? I spoke with Jim and he suggested dishwashing liquid, water, and a small paintbrush...perhaps some armor all if it was needed. Other ideas if that doesn't work?
After I clean an engine, I use Lemon Pledge furniture polish to shine up my old postwar trains. Works great, and doesn't leave a greasy residue, and I use cotton swabs in all the nooks and crannys. Takes time, but its worth the effort, and makes them look almost like new. You are one lucky dude, that engine is rare.
Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!
Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.
The best way I found out of getting mildew of i wipe it with a damp cotten cloth like a old t-shirt. Them I would just get black shoe polish (the paste kind) and use that on it. It would cover up small blemishes, and it seems to keep any more mildew from formng. I have used the polish on most of my cast engines.
Bob.M PhillyDuke He thinks that the less sophisticated mechanisms might not like the electronically controlled transformers and suggested I get a used post-war variety. Anyone ever come across this? No. My Postwar ZW doesn't have a Bell button. To test bells, I had to use the 1033, also a "real" transformer, but was made with the horn diode in backwards. When I added a "TMCC" Powermaster (71-28867-250) and CAB1 remote, both bells and whistles work. That setup is a lot less sophisticated than the newer electronic controlers, and works great with Postwar engines. The name TMCC is very confusing to me. It is used to describe this unsophisticated setup, AND the system by the same name which does lots more IF you buy a "TMCC equipped engine, and leave the track voltage set at ~18vac continuously. (Light bulbs hate that).
PhillyDuke He thinks that the less sophisticated mechanisms might not like the electronically controlled transformers and suggested I get a used post-war variety. Anyone ever come across this?
No. My Postwar ZW doesn't have a Bell button. To test bells, I had to use the 1033, also a "real" transformer, but was made with the horn diode in backwards. When I added a "TMCC" Powermaster (71-28867-250) and CAB1 remote, both bells and whistles work. That setup is a lot less sophisticated than the newer electronic controlers, and works great with Postwar engines. The name TMCC is very confusing to me. It is used to describe this unsophisticated setup, AND the system by the same name which does lots more IF you buy a "TMCC equipped engine, and leave the track voltage set at ~18vac continuously. (Light bulbs hate that).
Because I run strictly "conventional" I don't ordinarily respond to any post that discusses TMCC or any of the other modern systems or devices, but I may be able to clear up a couple of things.
The post-war ZW and the 1033 are both "real transformers," to use lionelsoni's terms, but they are wired/labeled differently. On the ZW, the A terminal should normally be connected to the center rail, and U to the outer one. With the 1033, the U terminal should normally be connected to the center rail, and the A terminal to an outer rail. But at the beginners' level it really doesn't matter. The whistle/horn should work no matter how you hook it up. There were no operating bells in those days.
With the advent of locos that have BOTH horn/whistles AND bells, the polarity (which wire you connect to the center rail) DOES make a difference. If you do it the above way you should get whistle or horn, if you do it the opposite way you will get bell. To get both (one or the other at a time, generally) you need to add something like a Lionel Sound Activation Button, 6-5906, or even TWO of them. I normally don't recommend running modern sound systems straight off of a post-war transformer., especially the PW ZW which can produce 25 volts or more when the whistle/horn lever is pressed.
As far as running anything off any transformer that will put out 18 -- 24* volts continuously, you should probably take out the original bulbs and replace them with ones rated for 24 volts, or power them by a separate transformer (or at least a different terminal) from the one that powers the track, and always keep the voltage down a bit. Bob "lionelsoni" Nelson has discussed this issue recently. Check "Search Community."
* The old Lionel type Z (not ZW) can do 24 volts easily do this.
.
As for the cleaning, I have heard of several methods. Dawn dish soap is suggested with a tooth brush and warm water....do NOT use over decals/numbers. Also, some have used lighter fluid. Check on a small area out of the way first. Dennis
TCA#09-63805
That is a nice looking locomotive. I agree with the others - get it tuned up and running before deciding what else you want to do with it.
If you think you might repaint in the future, don't use products with silicone in them on it. The silicone will give you fits with the paint.
I have used WD-40 to remove mildew from leather upholstery in cars. It might work for you.
I assume you set the E unit upright before you ran the train?
One way to find out where things are binding is to try to turn the drive wheels and back drive the motor. If the engine is binding in one direction, you will not be able to turn the drive wheels in the OPPOSITE direction. I believe the loco has a worm shaft driving the wheels. If one of the thrust bearings for this shaft is not lubed or is missing, you will not be able to turn the wheels in one direction.
Bruce Baker
Just an update for those following along. I took the 2020 and tender to my LHS today and paid a modest 1 hr. labor fee for them to properly lube it and make sure it was in good running order. The tech and store owner were shocked at how well it seemed to run...the bulb still shone and even smoked when a little fluid was added! We placed it on the layout in the middle of the store (I don't currently have one set up at home) that is connected to a modern ZW transformer and had it pull a NYC Flyer passenger consist around the track a few times. Ran great...with one catch: the tender wouldn't stop whistling. The repairman (who shall from here on out be referred to as "Bob"...because that's his name) tinkered with it for awhile, then placed it back on the loop and couldn't get it to whistle at all. As soon as he took it back to his workshop-nook and placed it on his bench connected to a post-war KW, it worked just fine and whistled on demand. He thinks that the less sophisticated mechanisms might not like the electronically controlled transformers and suggested I get a used post-war variety. Anyone ever come across this?
The other issue we encountered is that the engine won't run in reverse. Seems to bind up as soon as it tries to roll backwards. Bob thought it was the cam on the front drive wheel that triggers the smoke flapper catching on something when it goes in reverse, but that didn't seem to be the case. As it was getting close to shop closing, I decided to take the set home and work on the cleanup. Bob suggested some penetrating oil to remove the mildew from the shell, but it didn't seem to work very well on the plastic of the tender when he showed me how to apply it. I'll take it slowly when I begin the cleanup as to not remove any paint that I can avoid removing, but it was really great seeing it run around a loop today with very few difficulties. The front trucks looked a little loose as it took the curves, but I guess they needed to have a lot of side-to-side leeway in order to negotiate O-27 track.
Anyhow, I'll continue to post updates. Thanks to all for your input and feedback.
I agree with Jim.. Go very light with the amount of dishwashing detergent and luke warm with the water. Don't soak the shell too long or you may lose paint. I used cotton Q-tips on the nooks and crannies..
If you are dissatisfied with the first pass at washing the shell, repeat.
Armor all for car interiors, exterior trim, or tires? This product is silicone based and should bring the shine up but tends to leave a greasy residue. You can get them in disposable wipes. So go light on that on the application and then wipe with a soft cotton t-shirt.
Regarding replacement parts, there are a ton of sources, but here are a couple to start with. When you do a search on each website under the replacemtnt parts option, type 2020 and you should get a whole list of what parts they have in stock.
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/
PhillyDuke…….your pictures really turned out great in lighting, angles, and detail. I also agree with the responses you got. I’d get it back to operationally sound and put a little TLC into cleaning it up. Then run it while you are backfilling the original set.
Berk765 Wow your engine is very nice dude. I would replace the smoke bulb holder though. The early smoke pellets Lionel used were very corrosive. I believe they were ammonium nitrate?
Wow your engine is very nice dude. I would replace the smoke bulb holder though. The early smoke pellets Lionel used were very corrosive. I believe they were ammonium nitrate?
I'd love to! Anyone know where I can acquire the replacement part? It's pretty much beyond cleaning at this point. I don't want to necessarily get the smoke running again (at least not in its original form), but the holes in the metal concern me some. I'm hesitant to replace it with one of the '47-'49 smoke units, as I was informed that this involves tapping and drilling, making the modification irreversible. I would, however, be interested in what Jim did with his 2020 if he's able to find a way to get the headlight working again.
Bob.M I am curious as to what transformer you found with the engine (if any). Back then, I had types "R", "N" and "B", plus a prewar model that would give me a shock whenever I touched it. (It is gone now).
I am curious as to what transformer you found with the engine (if any). Back then, I had types "R", "N" and "B", plus a prewar model that would give me a shock whenever I touched it. (It is gone now).
Unfortunately I don't remember if there was one, or what it was if there was. It's been many years since we divided up my father's toys.
Just as an update, it's been determined that the majority of the white spotting on both the boiler and the tender are mildew and not ammonium nitrate corrosion. Anyone know of a safe way to remove the mildew w/o removing the paint?
PhillyDuke OK, I was curious so I broke out the 50D to take some pictures. I'm guessing this is a '46, because the smoke unit looks like a bulb with a depression in it to me. Can't really tell if the drivewheels are nickel or not. The front of the unit looks like it's seen better days, with lots of what I can only imagine is smoke pellet residue and some corrosion. There are even areas that look completely eaten through. The bulb access door looks like it was forced open/shut a few times, too:
OK, I was curious so I broke out the 50D to take some pictures. I'm guessing this is a '46, because the smoke unit looks like a bulb with a depression in it to me. Can't really tell if the drivewheels are nickel or not. The front of the unit looks like it's seen better days, with lots of what I can only imagine is smoke pellet residue and some corrosion. There are even areas that look completely eaten through. The bulb access door looks like it was forced open/shut a few times, too:
Philly,
I'll send you a PM.
Jim,
Thanks so much for taking a look. I'm somewhat torn as to whether to leave things as-is or take a crack at restoring it to it's former glory. That said, I'm still going to drop by Nicholas Smith on my lunch today and see if it at least runs (I have no layout set up right now), and pick up some supplies to maintain it.
I'd love to touch base with you and pick your brain on how best to clean this up and service it. I may feel differently about doing a complete cosmetic overhaul once the corrosion and spots are off the boiler and smoke/headlight unit. The tender could use some TLC as well. Feel free to PM me and we can either pick this up there or I'll give you my offline contact info. Depending on where in PA you are we might even be able to meet up in person.
As Jim states, it's a 1946 turbine, with it's original smoke bulb unit. Starting in 1947, Lionel offered a kit to convert those units to the nichrome wire heater type unit. (Those kits were available as late as 1969).Original smoke bulbs are available, but are generally way overpriced. Good reproductions have been made, and are reasonably priced.Be aware that with a smoke bulb, the engine will smoke poorly, or not at all. The bulb just does not get hot enough for the modern smoke materials.The original smoke material has not been available in years, because it's nasty stuff.IMHO, the engine is not bad enough to repaint, nor would I convert the smoke unit. Doing either would ruin it's character / uniqueness. . But it's your train, do whatever makes you happy!
PhillyDuke,
I just got Jack's message, and I have looked at the pics you've posted. As for cosmetics, I'd leave her exactly as she is now. The paint has less than average wear, and the only thing that really needs attention is the smoke unit. If it was really bad, then I'd say restore it, but it looks great just the way it is. Also, restored pieces, no matter how well done, just don't have the same character that they had originally IMHO. The spots on the boiler, as well as the corroded smoke unit, are the result of the ammonium nitrate pellets that these early units used. Ammonium nitrate is not stable, and it will eat metal when it is in the liquid state.
These engines are very easy to service, and I'd suggest that you do it youself instead of taking it to someone. It will be much cheaper, quicker, and a great learning experience to do it yourself. Plus, you'd know that the job was done right. I'd be more than happy to walk you through it online or over the phone.
I'm trying to contact JimT (green97probe) asking if he would read your thread "My Father's Lionel 2020" and weigh in on your master plan. In the meantime, read his thread "1946 Lionel 2020" and find his post where he provides a link to his youtube video running his finished product. Will knock you over!
Thanks, Jack! I look forward to hearing from you and seeing Jim's video.
Philly....if you look at each drive wheel, it appears silver on the edge. As you move toward the center of each drive wheel, the color is black. The 1946s had these wheels. But so did all of the 1947 units. But that must be a smoke bulb I see too, making the engine a 1946. Since I am neither a 2020 or smoke bulb expert, I am going to touch base with someone else on the Forum to take a look for us. He's got a 1946 version. We are getting close. Regarding the boiler, boiler plate, and the steam chest, it does look from the pictures that a simple cleaning won't do the trick. Same whith the tender shell which is plastic. Not a problem because some guys on the forum have stripped and repainted both the engine and the tender. They know the entire process from stripping and prep all the way to the correct paint, color as well as sheen, the correct numbering process, and other details. The cab on the back appears straight, not bent or chipped. That's a plus. Let me run down Jim T who I believe refinished his Dad's 1946 2020 and is currently posting and showing video of his completed refurbishing project. He replaced the smoke bulb with a smoke element because he wanted more smoke.....and boy did he get it!
My repair guy prefers the shell left on my steamers when I drop them off to protect everything inside. You may want to wait on the cosmetics until your repair shop is finished with the R&R and the engine is sound operationally. You can go from there on the cosmetics.
I'll get back to you.
PD......Of the 8 drive wheels, how many have the nickel edges versus plain black? If you look down the smoke stack, can you see what looks like a light bulb? We might be able to determine the engine year without the repair guy.
Wow, such great responses all around. Thanks! Yes, I do have the 2020 and 2020W, so I'm looking at a 1946 or 1947 set (my Dad was born in '38, so this makes sense), and the box the engine is in was a 3451 log dump car (which I believe I remember seeing when my sister claimed the rest of the O-Gauge), so I guess I need to nail down the year now.
Unfortunately the O-Gauge service/repairman at Nicholas Smith only works on M-W-F, so I wasn't able to bring the set by today. I'll probably drop by on my lunch tomorrow and see if he can at least ID the smoke unit.
As far as repainting goes, there are some areas that definitely lost paint, but as someone mentioned, although the cab reads "2020", there is a PRR Keystone decal on the front of the engine that reads "6200". I'll try to take a few pics and get them posted.
PhillyDuke said he is sure his Dad's 2020 with the 2020W tender were part of a set, his sister probably has the rest, he has the box for the 3451 operating log dump car, and he prefers to keep the cars as accurate as possible. I took that to mean he prefers to keep the cars as accurate as possible to the set his Dad had.
The 2020, 2020W and 3451 were together in a set only for 1946 and 1947. That would mean he is looking only for sets 1417WS and 1421WS for 1946, and 1441WS for 1947.
Only the 1946 2020 engine had a smoke bulb. If he finds his engine has a smoke bulb, he is looking at either set 1417WS or 1421WS. If he has a smoke element, he has a match with set 1441WS.
In another thread someone said you can look down the smoke stack and if the 2020 has a smoke bulb you can see it.
My 1948 catalog shows 2 consists using the 2020:
1. 1447WS = 2020 steam turbine, 6020W tender, 3451 automatic lumber car, 2461 transformer car, 2460 crane car, 6419 wrecker-caboose. This set cost $59.50.
2. 1449WS = 2020 steam turbine, 6020W tender, 3462 Automatic milk car , 6465 oil car (2 dome), 3459 automatic ore dump car, 6411 flat car, with a load of logs, 6537 illuminated caboose. $65.00.
Since the engine was found with a 3451 box, I'd guess it was the 1447WS set. If anyone asks, I could type in the other parts of the set, xfmr, etc. Both sets were O27. While it is obvious that the "WS" stands for Whistle & Smoke, I am guessing that the 2020 designation relates to the number of wheels on the engine. There are 3 consists involving the 671 in the same catalog, but they are "O" gauge.
I got my answer as to the length of the Lionel model: Catalog says 18 7/8".
Looking at the picture of the 1:1 scale model, and other pictures I have, it appears that the tender has a total if 16 wheels. in an 88 pattern. The Lionel/williams versions have (only) 12 wheels.
According to Paul Ambrose, nickel rims appeared on both early 671s and early 2020s. Lionel says that the locomotives are identical.
Bob Nelson
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