Upgrading the engine and tender on 4-4-2 and 0-8-0 Penna. Flyers

[PhillyDuke]

Hello, all...been enjoying my time here and reading as often as prying eyes at work will allow me. I've recently picked up a couple Pennsylvania Flyer starter sets, an older 4-4-2 from 2008 (7-11099) and the newer "upgraded" Keystone Special 0-8-0 (6-30096). My local latitude and longitude drove the choice of these sets over, say the Santa Fe or NYC versions, despite the fact that it is positioned as a more baseline entry-level set. I picked up the freight and passenger expansion packs, with the goal of my first layout being a double-loop with the 4-4-2 pulling the passenger cars and the 0-8-0 pulling the freight consist. Due to limited space (and funds), it'll likely be a convertible layout that will switch to Christmas mode with a Polar Express passenger train and a North Pole Central (future purchase) freight consist during the Holiday Season.

My fondness for PRR aside, I have grown a tad envious of the engines and tenders in the higher priced sets, with the Electronic whistle (Santa Fe) and TrainSounds (NYC) in the tenders of both sets, and the upgraded engine build in the 0-8-0 models (my understanding is there is no difference...other than cosmetics...in the 4-4-2 engines. Please correct me if I am mistaken). If I were to somehow acquire the engine and tender from one of these sets that has been broken up, is is possible to swap the "guts" out with the PRR engine and tender, creating a "Frankenstein" Pennsy Flyer with TrainSounds and (in the case of the 0-8-0) a better engine build. Can I just pop the tops off of them and swap shells, or is it more complicated than that? Would I be better off simply repainting an AT&SF or NYC in PRR livery (assuming of course, that I had the skill to do so)?

Taking this a step further, is there any way to run these types of engines under TMCC or Legacy? I've been having a hard time deciphering exactly what can be accomplished with these systems, as the Lionel website says of TMCC "Operate any AC-powered O gauge locomotive ever produced! Lionel locomotives from the Postwar period, modern train set locomotives, locomotives from any manufacturer they are all under your control with the CAB-1 and a 135 PowerMaster or a Track Power Controller" and "Control Multiple Conventional Locomotives. Use the Block Power controller to channel power...to the appropriate section of your track." Does this mean I can run them on the same loop at the same time, or am I limited to separate loops? Can these be upgraded with any internal add-ons to get the full benefit of TMCC/Legacy if I choose to do so at some point in the future?

Lots of questions, and the last one is really just a pipe dream at this point (I don't even have anything out of the boxes yet), so thanks in advance for the input.

[brianel027]

Yes PD, you can swap the shells on these current tenders at least for the 4-4-2 steamers. The tender on the 0-8-0 is different and I am not sure you can swap the shells on that one. I have found by experience, that although tenders might look nearly identical in length, the shells are just slightly different enough that you cannot swap one shell to another frame.

I'm not a digital control guy. But you can run these locos using a TMCC or Legacy control system, but it will be "convential" running unless you add the circuit boards to the individual loco that allow the advantages of the TMCC system to be utilized in that particular loco. It might be easier to simply watch the sales, and find a new loco with the TMCC circuitry already in it.

In your last paragraph, yes you hit on one of the advantages of TMCC. With a locos that are ready with the TMCC circuitry, you can run two locos on one loop of track at the same time. Each loco has an electronic name or ID, and you set that on your controller. If your loco is equipped with the speed control function, this will keep your loco running at the same speed regardless of where the loco is on the layout. TMCC can also eliminate wiring block systems in to your track layout.

BUT if you are a budget modeler as I suspect from what you've posted, it might be best to work within your current circumstances. I have a small layout and just don't see the necessity for TMCC. Plus it adds a lot of expense and reliability questions. If I had a much larger layout, I can see the advantages TMCC has.

But for me I figured out ways around it. For example, on the lower cost engines with DC can motors mounted in the trucks (like the K-Line by Lionel S-2 or MP-15) I have found these locos run much smoother and steadier on DC current to the track with the circuit boards removed from the locos. There's potential problems with this method too... like the whistle in the Lionel tenders uses DC current to operate. But I use "off track" sounds, so this is no trouble.

I enjoy the challenge of taking my lower cost locos and making them both look better and perform better, and I have accomplished both. I recently bought two DC only Lionel steam engines for $12... you can't beat that price. Mechanical improvements have already been made to one of them. It takes time with my crazy work schedule, but I've already made the paint masks and have done one of those locos in a fantasy Lehigh Valley scheme based on an MTH loco. I love the subtle humor in that one and even lifted the number from the MTH loco and put that one the little Lionel one. I'm still kinda tempted to put MTH on the tender as a gag.

So you work with what you have and can afford, and have fun regardless. Nothing wrong with dreaming though.... Lionel has taken advantage of customers dreaming for decades!

[PhillyDuke]

brianel027

Yes PD, you can swap the shells on these current tenders at least for the 4-4-2 steamers. The tender on the 0-8-0 is different and I am not sure you can swap the shells on that one. I have found by experience, that although tenders might look nearly identical in length, the shells are just slightly different enough that you cannot swap one shell to another frame.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Brian. I might have to give that a shot if I ever come across a set break-up. I certainly can't afford to buy whole new NYC Flyer sets just for the engines. Perhaps I'll get lucky if I make it to York this April. Can the same be done with the engines? While the 4-4-2 engines are the same, it would be nice to keep the same #'s on the cab, and the build upgrades on the 0-8-0 look to be much sturdier.

brianel027

I'm not a digital control guy. But you can run these locos using a TMCC or Legacy control system, but it will be "convential" running unless you add the circuit boards to the individual loco that allow the advantages of the TMCC system to be utilized in that particular loco. It might be easier to simply watch the sales, and find a new loco with the TMCC circuitry already in it.

Agreed. But I'm also a tinkerer...and a wild hair might lead me down this path if I have the time and resources...just wanted to know if it was possible/feasible. I do have my eye on the PRR Alco A-A set and streamliner cars, though.

brianel027

But for me I figured out ways around it. For example, on the lower cost engines with DC can motors mounted in the trucks (like the K-Line by Lionel S-2 or MP-15) I have found these locos run much smoother and steadier on DC current to the track with the circuit boards removed from the locos. There's potential problems with this method too... like the whistle in the Lionel tenders uses DC current to operate. But I use "off track" sounds, so this is no trouble.

I enjoy the challenge of taking my lower cost locos and making them both look better and perform better, and I have accomplished both. I recently bought two DC only Lionel steam engines for $12... you can't beat that price. Mechanical improvements have already been made to one of them... 

Alright, you lost me a bit here, but it's a perfect segue into one of my other "newbie" questions, specifically, what's the difference between AC and DC when it comes to trains? I know the basic concept from an electricity standpoint (and the rock band). I did a quick search awhile back and was led to believe that all older O-gauge stuff was DC and the newer stuff is all AC, with DC being reserved for G and S gauge. I'm sure I have this wrong, though.

[lionelsoni]

The historical reasons for using AC or DC have to do with the motors.  In the early days, permanent magnets were not good enough to make the small motors needed for toy trains, so series motors, in which the motor field was an electromagnet, were used instead.  These motors, with the refinement of laminated magnetic circuits, could run on either AC or DC and are called "universal motors".  They are in fact the same sort of motors as used (until very recently) on prototype locomotives.  There is a recent trend to refer to them as "pull-mor" motors, although that was American Flyer's name for rubber traction tires.  These motors can be reversed only by rewiring the motor, which is and was done (if at all) with an onboard manual switch or with a reversing unit, basically a specialized stepping switch.  Lionel called these "e units", because the prewar locomotives that had them had an "E" suffix in their model numbers.

The new scale of HO developed around newly practical permanent-magnet DC motors.  Since these can be reversed by reversing the polarity of the DC track voltage, there was no need to cram any extra electrics into the small locomotives.  The German company Maerklin, however, made HO with universal motors, intended for AC operation. 

Both Lionel and American Flyer have built DC-only locomotives with permanent-magnet motors; but their main thrust has been AC.  (American Flyer was O gauge before WWII, S after.)

Modern toy trains tend to use permanent-magnet DC motors, although with rectifiers so that they can run on AC and be compatible with older locomotives, use the same sort of AC power, and so on.

Scale modelers almost universally use DC motors and DC track voltage.  This includes those who model in O and S scale.  Their equipment is not compatible with toy trains in a number of ways.