I am seeking advice on building a layout for my brother. The kind folk on the Electronics and DCC forum thought that I might get some good advice over here.
My 63 year old brother operates at a 1st-2nd grade level. He wants a new train set and he wants it to be O gauge. O is probably the right choice since they are tougher. He has room for a 4 x 7 layout. I found a (crowded) plan that packs two loops in it. He would love running two trains simultaneously as well as horns, blinky lights and the rest.
The dream solution would be to use DCC with two throttles and then a row of buttons for the switches, lights, etc. He would not have any means to reprogram anything or get lost in some menu system. The worst solution would be to have a remote control with a zillion multi-function buttons and a way to reprogram things.
I think DCC or, reluctantly, some other control system would help him not have to worry about the headaches of running two trains on the same connecting track. He would simply have to worry about the throttle for each and make sure they don't crash (too often). I think the old block method would be a real headache for him to deal with.
Thanks for any help.
lionel legacy: Easy big red throttle control and basic features are icon based and very easy to learn and understand. Its the most intuitive system out for O
model in O. the Western NY and Ontario Railroad
Norbert,
Are you certain a remote control system is best for him?
I gave the wrong impression. Remote control would be lousy. An old style setup with a control board with discrete throttles and buttons would be best.
I would go with PW Lionel. You could lock the e-unit in the forward postion. 2 1033 transformers would work great and fairly cheap.
wsdimenna lionel legacy: Easy big red throttle control and basic features are icon based and very easy to learn and understand. Its the most intuitive system out for O
I like the sound, the throttle, the brake. Having to use icons/keypad to switch trains scares me. Using multi-function buttons of any kind is a big concern. Unless I can lock the system down so that he can't program anything/change configuration then I'm afraid it won't work.
I'm also not thrilled that it locks me into Lionel, but I could live with that.
DCC isn't really an option for O-gauge toy trains. On the other hand, the two systems that are available, TMCC and DCS, do involve computers and programming of locomotives. I suspect that you're not thinking of two completely separate loops, which rules out the otherwise practical two-transformer (or dual-output transformer) approach.
I will reluctantly suggest the system that I use--reluctantly because it may involve more modification to the trains and transformer than you would want to undertake. I use half-wave AC power. I can control two trains on the same track by varying the amplitude of the positive half-cycles independently of the negative half-cycles. My locomotives can be set to be sensitive to one or the other (or both or neither). For your brother, I would suggest permanently setting up each of two locomotives for the different polarities. This would involve adding a silicon rectifier (about 5 amperes) and a 5 millifarad capacitor (about the size of a C cell) to each locomotive. On the transformer end, you would have to construct two synchronous rectifiers. One of these involves a silicon-controlled rectifier (SCR), a small transistor, and a couple of resistors, about a cubic inch of electronics.
The result would be what I think you're looking for, two simple speed controls permanently associated with the two locomotives. If you think your electronics skills are up to this, I'll be happy to talk you through it.
Bob Nelson
Bob,
I did this years ago with a KW. One diode from A and one from B with the diodes in opposite directions. Tie the two free ends of the diodes together and wire them to the the center rail. Put a diode in each loco in series with the pickup. I didn't put the caps in because I was just experiementing, but the caps are obviously going to stop all the noise I had. Half wave rectified 60 Hz creates quite a lot of noise in the motors. Also, of course, the whistle relays don't work right. Did you do anything special about the whistle relays?
Back in the '50s, the HO guys were using half wave AC for pulse power to get good slow running of the engines. If you leave out the cap, or use a smaller cap, you should have the same thing.
Bruce Baker
There is a problem with using just diodes at the transformer. If the peak voltages are more than 2 diode drops different, the diodes conduct current between A and B for part of the cycle. That is why I use the synchronous rectifier, which actively switches each of the transformer outputs on for the appropriate half-cycle only.
I have the whistle motors wired up much like the locomotive motors, but with a positive option only. Then I can run a single locomotive's motor on negative and the whistle on positive. This gives me the ability to play with the whistle sound. Of course, to run two locomotives, I have to shut off the whistle. I also have a switch position to re-enable normal relay operation. With this option and the locomotive set for full-wave, the whole thing behaves conventionally, except without any e-unit buzz.
For Norbert's brother, I would leave most of those options out, with a permanent polarity selection for each locomotive. He did mention whistles though; so I thought it might not be too much to wire the whistle with its own diode and put only an on-off switch onto it, so that his brother would have a one-locomotive whistle option, which he might be able to handle.
What you say is true, but somehow, as best I remember, it worked OK. I was using two Alco PAs for the test, and maybe I didn't watch too closely what happened when I turned on control off. I am going to try it again. A synchronous rectifier certainly will work.
lionelsoni I use half-wave AC power. I can control two trains on the same track by varying the amplitude of the positive half-cycles independently of the negative half-cycles. My locomotives can be set to be sensitive to one or the other (or both or neither).
Some of the 1960's Lionel slotcar sets used this technique to allow two slotcars to run on one track. I had a set that included a pair of special switch tracks. The idea was to get ahead of your opponent, and switch lanes, blocking him from passing you. There was another set that had two lanes, but it came with four controllers, and four cars. I am not overly familiar with this one. I think the set was designed to be used with two teams of two people each. Each team would get one lane, The driver of the "A" car would race to a special "relay" track where he would bump the "B" car to start it, and the "B" driver would do a lap, and then bump the "A" car. And so-on. These cars have little rectifiers built into the chassis. The cars, and controllers had little "A" or "B" stickers to match up the controlles with the cars. Today they are often found with the stickers intact. But sometimes they fall off. Usually when the stickers are gone, the outine can be seen.
As far as the original poster's question goes, I'd like to suggest putting a manually reset circuit breaker in the control system. I have always used postwar Lionel #91 breakers. They trip instantly, and light up. There is a large red rectangular button to reset it. I don't have much experience with impaired adults, but the original poster comparied his brother's abilities to a young school age child. Children in that age group typically have no trouble learning to fix the derailment, and reset the breaker.
If you are looking at two fully independent loops how about just a pair of Williams GEEPS and replace the e-units with rectfiers, one direction only no reverse function, and powered by a MRC Dual power. You still maintain the sounds, just bell & horn no engine, and they are very rugged. I always refer to them as the Timex of the trainworld. Operating accessories can be set-up on a linear style panel utilizing doorbell buttons for operation and even a picture of the accessory that the button operates or a color code system.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
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I have much to consider here. How does price/toughness/availability differ between 2 and 3 rail O?
First, I have had a number of 1-3 graders adjust easily to using legacy. It required little effort to teach the basics. Second they still need supervision. So I still suggest legacy and a extra remote.
With respect to 2 vs 3 rail.. More durability less wiring hassles with three rail, and more product availibility at all price points.
It´s not 0-gauge, it´s not from the US, but I think that you should consider Märklin H0. I think that their simplest controller MobileStation would be great for your brother. And Märklin H0 is as sturdy as 0-gauge. Go to Marklin.com and look for the Fire dept start set.
Well, thinking back to what I had as a child of that age (1950), was a simple 6 x 8 board. It had one loop with a inner passing siding with 2 switches that automatically routed a train from the outside to the inside and back again. The inside loop had a milk platform, log dump and a cattle corral and also had an uncouple magnet. It was easy to run, I could start - stop - and back up trains to operate accesories. I could uncouple cars, I could change the switche position, I could add and subtract cars. We didn't have much money so we added operating accessories and cars one per year. An oil derrick, a rotating airport beacon, a searchlight car and crane car, etc. A plasticville passenger station to stop the Santa Fe passenger train at. At this age the individuals imagination, playing and having control over the world was most enjoyable.
For this use, an additional separate inner loop added for running 2 trains at once would be easiest. For trains a freight loco starter set and a diesel passenger starter set. A couple of plastic buildings, a few pine trees, some people to move around, a few cars and trucks. A gondola to put stuff in - coal, candy etc. You can add to this on birthdays, Christmas and special ocassions.
If you start like this you can build and add slowly or quickly. The base will work however you expand. Interconnecting loops introduces a level of complexity, that is beyond most just coming to the hobby. You can always do this later. Using the command control options while adding immensly to the realism of operations, introduces additional expense (sometimes significant) and at times frustration with the details of programing and operations.
Start with a plain board, add a grass or snow mat if you wish. Get a styrofoam tunnel. Get a grider bridge. Add realistic scenary as his interest develops.
Net - in my opinion keep it simple, start inexpensively, add on where needed, grow in sophistication as your brother can handle. Use 3 rail, O-31 track, 1 ZW transformer or 2 of smaller size.
Have fun!
hielsie
NorbertMy 63 year old brother operates at a 1st-2nd grade level. He wants a new train set and he wants it to be O gauge. O is probably the right choice since they are tougher. He has room for a 4 x 7 layout. I found a (crowded) plan that packs two loops in it. He would love running two trains simultaneously as well as horns, blinky lights and the rest.
What you will find here in this forum is opinions. Everyone has their own biases as to what is best. I have a few things to share.
1. One of the few things I recall about being in the 2nd grade was the frustration that the powers that be would not let me legally drive a car. I was perfectly capable, and had driven my brothers Crosley many times at an abandoned airport.
2. Your post mentions a layout with two loops. That is probably better than trying some high-tech scheme for getting 2 engines to work on the same track. He can race the two trains if he wants to. You should design the setup so that in the case of a derailment, no serious damage is done to the engine and cars. Running on a carpet is usually safe, but for my present setup, I have a flexible plastic mesh fence all around to catch the train before it hurtles to the ground. I presently have 2 loops and can run 2 trains at a time, but I seldom do. An old postwar ZW transformer would be ideal for running 2 trains, with one handle for each. Maybe someone knows of some more modern transformer with two handles.
Before building anything, you may want to pick up a copy of Greenberg's Wiring Your Lionel Layout. The book contains easy-to-follow instructions for wiring a layout that will handle two or three trains with two loops, a passing siding and a spur. All tool and supply requirements are clearly spelled out. Control panel construction (including transformers) is also covered, as is basic troubleshooting. (I used the book as a starter for our Christmas tree layout which contains American Flyer and Lionel pieces.) After you (and your brother) feel more comfortable with the layout, you can experiment by adding accessories, scenery, etc.
The bottom line: research your options thoroughly before starting construction. Be realistic about your goals vs. abilities. You may be spared some headaches later.
I hope this helps.
Dr. Riddle (the author) may be a good music teacher; but I find his grasp of electricity to be pretty shaky. I found the book to be "riddled" with errors, some more serious than others. I suggest you save your money. Here is my errata sheet for it. (I noted only the first instance of an error.)
p. 7 "Amperage" is unnecessary slang for "current" (not listed in the IEEE dictionary). It is generally not used in electrical engineering nor in the physical sciences.
p. 8 The volume of water in a hose is not "the equivalent of amperage". It is analogous to charge. The definition of "watt" as "reserve electrical capacity" rather than a unit of power is misleading. Also, the word "capacity" has a well-defined electrical meaning.
pp.8-9 The "water wheel analogy" is hopelessly muddled.
p. 10 The current reverses 120 times each second: Each cycle requires two reversals.
p. 12 The advice to use 18 AWG ignores the possibility that the transformer's overcurrent protection may be much higher than the 7-ampere ampacity of 18 AWG wire.
p. 17 A barrier strip is not properly called a "bus strip".
p. 18 A washer does not "increase the holding power" of a bolt but rather distributes the load and protects the surface from damage. A lock washer prevents a bolt or nut from loosening by keeping it from turning. All Lionel turnout controllers are momentary SPDT switches, not DPDT. The lights, when not covered by shutters as described, are lighted by current drawn by the turnout solenoids.
p. 24 A Lionel transformer does not contain a rheostat, which is an adjustable resistor.
p. 37 It is not necessary at all to isolate the outside rails where the loops connect. Simply having the transformers in phase does not insure against a fault current when crossing between loops.
p. 39 There is no need for more than one common bus for the entire layout, regardless of how many transformers are used. The term "ground loop" has another meaning in electronics.
p. 40 The constant turnout voltage may be supplied by any transformer when a common return is used.
p. 59 Any type of signal, including a semaphore, may be a block signal. A signal with colored lights only is called simply a "color light" signal.
p. 78 A bimetallic strip is joined along its entire length, not just at the ends. "Electrical power" does not flow "from the negative pole to the positive pole", electrons do. But electrical current by convention (except in the US military) flows from positive to negative.
Finally, the block scheme that he assumes, running from a block controlled by one transformer output to a block controlled by another transformer output, particularly when from the same transformer, is a fire hazard.
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