Trains.com

I LOVE my KW transformer but there's a catch...

10723 views
26 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Shelbyville, TN
  • 679 posts
I LOVE my KW transformer but there's a catch...
Posted by Berk765 on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 8:44 AM

I finally got my last Christmas present a Lionel KW transformer. And I LOVE it. Runs my pw trains just fine, but the problem is when I tried to run my newer engines is that the sounds come on like normal but the whistle doesn't work. I first noticed this when I tried to activate the whistle tender in the newer Polar Express tender. I also tried a standard railsounds tender but it done the same thing, except when I fooled around with the whistle lever the whistle would sound but it would not shut off, and the bell sound would do the same thing also. They would only shut off again if you messed with the whistle lever for a few seconds or longer, not instantanious control like it should. With both the modern air whistle tender and the railsounds tender, the lights do flicker like normal when I activate the whistle lever, but still no whistle. I thought there might be something wrong with the tenders so I tested both of them with the CW-80 and it activates the whistles like normal on the newer tenders. I thought there might be something wrong with the transformer itself so I tried a pw tender but it whistles just fine. 

So I figured i needed a sound activation button to make the whistles blow in the more modern trains. So I got out my 6-5906 sound activation button that came with my Wabash Hudson, and it still would not work it wouldn't even try and i did hook it up right. I hooked the red wire to the A terminal post and the black wire to the center rail of the track.

The only thing I could come up with is that I could install a switch in the wire leads to the KW to shut it off temporararly while I run the newer trains with the MTH transformer, and install a switch to cut power off from the MTH transformer when I want to run pw trains. I dont want to do this because the KW runs the newer engines as if they have speed control function on them. Any help would be greatly apreciated. Thanks.

Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!

Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Lake Worth FL
  • 4,014 posts
Posted by phillyreading on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 9:10 AM

You can buy a double pole double throw switch at Radio Shack with contacts rated at 120 volts A.C. It will probally be listed as a dpdt switch. To wire it you run the wires to the track from the center terminals of the switch and hook up one transformer to each set of side terminals, with that setup you will be able to switch back & forth from two transformers.

The reason the new tenders don't act right with the older transformer is an electronic issue with the new equipment.

Lee F.

Interested in southest Pennsylvania railroads; Reading & Northern, Reading Company, Reading Lines, Philadelphia & Reading.
  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: MICH
  • 8,153 posts
Posted by sir james I on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 9:20 AM

I'm not sure if there is a cure for your problem. A double throw switch would give you one transformer or the other but the whistle thing, I don't know. Lionel has used so many different types of boards I don't think that there is one answer. A KW and a 5906 should do it all but I have a Hogwarts air whistle that won't blow with the 5906 but will with a PW ZW. My Right of Way transformer will activate some W/B boards and not others. So who knows. I think it's the sound boards and not the buttons.

"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks 

  Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC)   - Detroit3railers-  Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Shelbyville, TN
  • 679 posts
Posted by Berk765 on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 9:49 AM

Well thanks guys, I guess I will buy the double pole throw switch. I guess thats the sacrifice you have to make when running with classic power. I guess the mighty KW just doesn't like new stuff.Laugh

Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!

Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • 815 posts
Posted by EIS2 on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 10:07 AM

It is probably better to use a modern transformer with your modern engines anyway.  Modern engines have sensitive electronics that can be destroyed without proper circuit protection.  Most modern transformers provide that circuit protection.  Prewar and postwar engines are almost indestructible, and so have no need of  extra circuit protection beyond the standard circuit breaker that comes with the transformer.

Earl

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Shelbyville, TN
  • 679 posts
Posted by Berk765 on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 10:35 AM

EIS2

It is probably better to use a modern transformer with your modern engines anyway.  Modern engines have sensitive electronics that can be destroyed without proper circuit protection.  Most modern transformers provide that circuit protection.  Prewar and postwar engines are almost indestructible, and so have no need of  extra circuit protection beyond the standard circuit breaker that comes with the transformer.

Earl

Yeah your right. I guess I was taking a huge risk just testing out those tenders.

Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!

Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 1,340 posts
Posted by Seayakbill on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 11:02 AM

Yeah your right. I guess I was taking a huge risk just testing out those tenders.

 

Yep, by the time the KW circut breaker trips you will have fried your modern electronics six ways to Sunday.

Bill T.

  • Member since
    March 2009
  • From: Central Texas
  • 318 posts
Posted by Texas Pete on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 11:12 AM

Yeah your right. I guess I was taking a huge risk just testing out those tenders.

 

Yep, by the time the KW circut breaker trips you will have fried your modern electronics six ways to Sunday.

 

Which is why you should have a transient voltage suppressor connected across the track leads of *all* your transformers.

Search the forum for "tvs" and read up on it.

Pete

 

"You can’t study the darkness by flooding it with light."  - Edward Abbey -

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Shelbyville, TN
  • 679 posts
Posted by Berk765 on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 12:37 PM

Well I installed the special switch and it works great! Thanks guys. I will read up on TVS.

Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!

Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.

  • Member since
    February 2007
  • 928 posts
Posted by bfskinner on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 12:57 PM

The unquestioned authority about protection from voltage spikes on a toy train layout is Bob "lionelsoni" Nelson of this forum. He has patiently explained the need and provided sources for absurdly inexpensive TVS diodes over and over again. Check the "Search Community" function ASAP.

.

.

bf
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 6:23 PM

The circuit breaker (or fuse or foldback circuit) is there to protect the transformer.  It will also protect your wiring if you use wire suitable for the circuit breaker's rating.  It is not particularly good at protecting your locomotives.  That's what you need a TVS for.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • 4 posts
Posted by Pine River RR on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 6:45 PM
Before I bought a Lionel Legacy Control system, I ran TMCC, Legacy, and conventional locomotives with my KW and my ZW transformers. I did notice, however, that it only worked when I had the leads from the transformer hooked up a certain way. If I had the leads reversed, only the PW whistles and horns worked. When I switched the center rail and outside rail leads around, everything worked fine. Steve Bergerson
  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Shelbyville, TN
  • 679 posts
Posted by Berk765 on Tuesday, January 5, 2010 9:39 PM

lionelsoni

The circuit breaker (or fuse or foldback circuit) is there to protect the transformer.  It will also protect your wiring if you use wire suitable for the circuit breaker's rating.  It is not particularly good at protecting your locomotives.  That's what you need a TVS for.

Shock

DANG! I had no idea!

Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!

Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: Southwest Georgia
  • 5,028 posts
Posted by dwiemer on Wednesday, January 6, 2010 4:57 AM

OK, slightly O.T. here at least as the original author had posted, but I had one other problem with my KW....I am gearing up for Legacy control, but in testing the layout for proper power, etc., I have two sections that are separated for power so as not to have too much draw on one transformer.  Not having the transformer shelf set up yet, I had it on the floor.  Getting a little confused with the two power handles on the KW, I had inadvertently had the second section at full throttle thinking it was off.  Now, when a nice new locomotive switches from trackage that is at normal operating speeds to trackage that is at full power....well, you know what happened.  Looked like my old 1689 that took off like a rocket!Blush  So a word of caution and lessons learned:

1.  Make sure transformer is close enough to get to when these things happen
2.  Make sure you are familiar enough with your transformer to know which way is OFF!"
3.  Do NOT use a brand new locomotive to test track....unless it is for clearance.

The TVS is a must as Bob has given full dialog on these pages.  I am thankful for his and the input of others on this forum that keep me from causing more damage than I usually do to my trains.
Dennis

TCA#09-63805

 

Charter BTTs.jpg

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Shelbyville, TN
  • 679 posts
Posted by Berk765 on Wednesday, January 6, 2010 2:20 PM

dwiemer

OK, slightly O.T. here at least as the original author had posted, but I had one other problem with my KW....I am gearing up for Legacy control, but in testing the layout for proper power, etc., I have two sections that are separated for power so as not to have too much draw on one transformer.  Not having the transformer shelf set up yet, I had it on the floor.  Getting a little confused with the two power handles on the KW, I had inadvertently had the second section at full throttle thinking it was off.  Now, when a nice new locomotive switches from trackage that is at normal operating speeds to trackage that is at full power....well, you know what happened.  Looked like my old 1689 that took off like a rocket!Blush  So a word of caution and lessons learned:

1.  Make sure transformer is close enough to get to when these things happen
2.  Make sure you are familiar enough with your transformer to know which way is OFF!"
3.  Do NOT use a brand new locomotive to test track....unless it is for clearance.

The TVS is a must as Bob has given full dialog on these pages.  I am thankful for his and the input of others on this forum that keep me from causing more damage than I usually do to my trains.
Dennis

Yes it is confusing I don't know why lionel made the transformer handles turn in different ways.

Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!

Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • 815 posts
Posted by EIS2 on Wednesday, January 6, 2010 7:12 PM

Berk765
Yes it is confusing I don't know why lionel made the transformer handles turn in different ways.

I agree that the handles look incorrect when they are in the 'OFF' position.  However, turning either throttle clockwise increases speed and counterclockwise decreases speed which is kind of an industry standard.

Earl

  • Member since
    February 2007
  • 928 posts
Posted by bfskinner on Thursday, January 7, 2010 9:28 AM

I have heard the the horizontal throttle-handles on the postwar Lionel Type KW transformes were designed to resemble the the throttles on certain real locomotives. Inasmuch as I have almost zero experience in a real cab, can someone who has run real trains confirm or dash this notion?

I'm not wild about the ergonomics of the KW, having had some of the same experiences with runaway trains due to operator error. The other knock on them is that sometimes when you move one handle, the drag between them causes the other one to move also. I pretty-well solved this by putting a little graphite on the aluminum disk that separates them. I also have some sheet-Teflon that I will cut to size and try out as a replacement for the disk -- when I get a round tuit.

.

 

 

bf
  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Shelbyville, TN
  • 679 posts
Posted by Berk765 on Thursday, January 7, 2010 12:32 PM

Pine River RR
Before I bought a Lionel Legacy Control system, I ran TMCC, Legacy, and conventional locomotives with my KW and my ZW transformers. I did notice, however, that it only worked when I had the leads from the transformer hooked up a certain way. If I had the leads reversed, only the PW whistles and horns worked. When I switched the center rail and outside rail leads around, everything worked fine. Steve Bergerson

 

Great Idea! I will try that, AFTER I get a few TVS's.

Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!

Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Hopewell, NY
  • 3,230 posts
Posted by ADCX Rob on Saturday, December 26, 2020 12:04 AM

bfskinner
I'm not wild about the ergonomics of the KW, having had some of the same experiences with runaway trains due to operator error.



If you can change your frame of reference a little, the KW is like the right side of a ZW or VW - both throttles turn clockwise for increase, and the knobs are offset some.  Now, if you mount the KW on a vertical surface on your control panel, it mimics the larger transformers even more so, and provides direction & whistle controls for both dials.

Rob

  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Rolesville, NC
  • 15,416 posts
Posted by ChiefEagles on Saturday, December 26, 2020 11:29 AM

Moved to correct thread.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

  • Member since
    July 2020
  • 1,623 posts
Posted by pennytrains on Saturday, December 26, 2020 6:21 PM

I stopped buying stuff from a well known "hot-town" hobby shop/buyer because they only use FedEX.  I would watch the tracking tool and somehow the box would always go on a grand circle tour of the continental United States (and often return to point of origin at least once) before arriving at my door.  Tongue Tied

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

  • Member since
    October 2020
  • From: SE Minnesota, USA
  • 71 posts
Posted by Snip on Saturday, December 26, 2020 9:41 PM

pennytrains
I would watch the tracking tool and somehow the box would always go on a grand circle tour of the continental United States (and often return to point of origin at least once) before arriving at my door.

I am amazed how some of the items I follow tracking make a dash for my house, and then take another 3 days getting delivered from the local terminal.

  • Member since
    June 2013
  • 642 posts
Posted by smokey1 on Saturday, December 26, 2020 10:10 PM

I'll take FedEx any day over USPS, I have never had as bad of service from them until I moved here 3 years ago. It started right away. I have had packages bounce around Atlanta for 2 weeks before getting forward to me. ( USPS has three places mail gets sorted in Atlanta, ) UPS and FedEx seem to do really well for me. I guess all falls on where you live. I have had packages come to Atlanta to go to CA. before coming back to Atlanta. 

  • Member since
    November 2007
  • 447 posts
Posted by stuartmit on Sunday, December 27, 2020 7:56 PM

I can't imagine why Lionell designed the KW throttles to work the way they do. I can certainly understand that some thing about their inner workings dictates this design because both throttles move clockwise to produce the same affect--more voltage delivered To the rails. But it's really problematic to remember that you push one and pull the other to increase the voltage. I think that if they could not come up with any other design, they should simply have omitted this model completely. I do note that on the SW, both throttles the high-voltage and the low-voltage, turn south that they are both off when pointing to the outside and both full on one pointing to the inside.  I believe this is a lot easier to remember in case of an emergency.

No question USPS is a mess this year, perhaps do the service cutbacks by the postmaster general, or the tremendous increase in volume created by people using a lot of online purchasing rather than going to brick and mortar retail stores.

I have medicine and an eBay purchase both in USPS now since Friday, 11 December. one is coming from Memphis, and the other from Michigan. Further, tracking has not been updated in eight or nine days perhaps a little bit longer than that. 

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2020
  • From: SE Minnesota, USA
  • 71 posts
Posted by Snip on Sunday, December 27, 2020 8:44 PM

smokey1

I'll take FedEx any day over USPS, I have never had as bad of service from them until I moved here 3 years ago. It started right away. I have had packages bounce around Atlanta for 2 weeks before getting forward to me. ( USPS has three places mail gets sorted in Atlanta, ) UPS and FedEx seem to do really well for me. I guess all falls on where you live. I have had packages come to Atlanta to go to CA. before coming back to Atlanta. 

 

 
That reminds me of an old joke (back when a payphone call and a First Class stamp each cost ten cents).
 
Which is a better bargain, to make a phone call or to mail a letter?
 
The letter, it only costs a penny a day to send it!Geeked
  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Loudonville, NY
  • 776 posts
Posted by Benjamin Maggi on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 1:09 PM

My ZW won't blog the Hogwarts whistle in the tender even though I had the whistle recitifers upgraded with modern ones at the local service station, another thread on this forum that I can't currently link to.

Still nothing, so I use my CW80 to run it.

Modeling the D&H in 1984: http://dandhcoloniemain.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Hopewell, NY
  • 3,230 posts
Posted by ADCX Rob on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 2:54 PM

Benjamin Maggi
My ZW won't blog the Hogwarts whistle in the tender even though I had the whistle recitifers upgraded with modern ones at the local service station...



The Hogwarts set does not draw enough current from the ZW to create a DC offset.

Rob

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

FREE EMAIL NEWSLETTER

Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month