Hand Laid O-27

[I Don Know]

Hi Fred - you still out there? I’ve been reading this thread about your hand laying the old style track - looks awesome!!  I was interested in your switches - excellent job btw on all your explanations - fabulous idea too - so everything was going great then it just stopped..............so can you tell more about the switches????????    THANKS - Don

[balidas]

I was looking up this machine when I ran across this DIY 3 axis cnc router.

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Three-Axis-CNC-Machine-Cheaply-and-/?ALLSTEPS

fredswain

I've got an easier way planned out but haven't done it yet. Last year I bought a nice little toy. I bought a 3 axis cnc router. It is capable of 24" on the X and Y axes and 12" on the Z axis. More than enough for anything hobby related. Unfortunately it is sitting in my storage unit since I still haven't built an enclosed vacuum cabinet for it.

[fredswain]

I have a bunch of the old Model Builder magazines from the 30's and 40's, a couple of which show exactly what you are talking about. As long as there have been model trains there have been people trying to make them look more realistic. I also have some remnants of an old outside third rail layout originally built around 1930. I have several of the old hand built brass and cast aluminum cars and some of the old code 198 rail, outside rail, and outside rail chairs. The rail is all brass and was last made prior to WWII. I am currently straightening it out, cleaning it, and then having it nickel plated. These remnants are going into a small shelf switching layout complete with working outside rail. I've always loved outside rail and just thought it would be neat to salvage a little bit of the old ways on a small fairly portable layout but with a couple of modern touches here and there.

The one thing I have found is that no matter how you do third rail, having the third rail itself in the center always looks less natural or realistic than running it on the outside. An outside rail using code 100 rail but with O-27 tubular main running rails looks surprisingly nice on wood ties. Especially painted and detailed. However even code 148 rail with an inside rail looks like 3 rail track. The same O-27 rail track with the code 100 third rail moved to the center still doesn't look very realistic. I'm not saying that inside 3 rail is bad. Not at all. I love 3 rail. That's why I model in it. In trying to convey more of a sense of reality though yet maintaining 3 rail electrically, moving the third rail outside looks far more natural regardless of rail type. I think I still have a few test pieces lying around that I laid but I can always make a few more.

My new cnc router will allow me to cut out tie strips in 1 piece that are connected under the rails. I could also use it to drill a few spike holes so it would be easy to lay rail without a separate gauge. You don't need to spike every tie so it could be a nice easy retrofit for any tubular track. I'm probably doing to do this on my nephew's O-27 layout.

[balidas]

That sounds interesting. Something to look into.

fredswain

I've got an easier way planned out but haven't done it yet. Last year I bought a nice little toy. I bought a 3 axis cnc router. It is capable of 24" on the X and Y axes and 12" on the Z axis.

[wjstix]

Interesting thread!! Funny to note that 75 years and more ago, Al Kalmbach and many of the other pioneers in model railroading were doing something similar - taking Lionel (and/or Marx O-34) track and removing the rail and laying it on ties to make it look better. Sometimes they converted the track to outside third rail, using smaller rail intended for HO. (I wonder if there's a way you could add a smaller or thinner third rail between the rails...kinda like the old Super O track??)

I remember seeing a pic of a Standard Gauge layout in IIRC Florida that had the rails relaid on wood ties, and with outside third rail to boot.

[fredswain]

I've got an easier way planned out but haven't done it yet. Last year I bought a nice little toy. I bought a 3 axis cnc router. It is capable of 24" on the X and Y axes and 12" on the Z axis. More than enough for anything hobby related. Unfortunately it is sitting in my storage unit since I still haven't built an enclosed vacuum cabinet for it. I have drawn up a tie strip that I can cut out with it that is all one piece. I can set it to drill holes or at least mark locations for holes so you don't need a gauge. Instead of needing to sit there tie by tie spiking each one, you could knock a piece out much faster this way. You could only do a few spikes if you wanted to. It wouldn't matter. I've got all kinds of things drawn out and planned. I just need to get on it.

[balidas]

Not yet but I'm in the learning stages of building a turnout using tubular and at some point I want to try your method of hand laying rail.

[sandusky]

Just 2 rail O and some On2.....so, no

Mike

[fredswain]

Since this thread had lots of interest I was wondering if any of you got around to trying this in the almost 2 years since the thread was active?

[fredswain]

As an update on things, I did finish my totally tubular trestle. I took lots of pictures. It's just a matter of writing it all out. It looks pretty neat. Simple to build too since I'll guide you through step by step with the pictures.

As for my O27 turnouts, I haven't worked on them in about 3 weeks. I was moving along nicely but then got side tracked (literally) on other projects. I'll get back to them soon. As for the center rail being offset, it was just sitting there. It's not attached that way and isn't how I'm doing it. I am making a new piece for that spot from scratch. That's another thing I need to get to. I'm trying to get my stud rail finalized so I can get the new track company officially launched. I'm also finalizing my inside 3rd rail designs and my outside 3rd rails. I still have lots of jigs to build. I'll also have to get the website set up. After all this work I hope someone is interested!

For rail blackening I have really only played with Neolube and paint. I'm not a fan of Neolube but it does look nice. I know there is other stuff out there to try. I just haven't had time. I still work a full time job. I'd love for that to change.

Fred

[sandusky]

Fred- There is/was a product advertised in MR/RMC for years called "Blacken-it", and it's cousin "Weather-it". I don't know if these would be heartier for blackening your center rail, as I have not had first-hand experience with it. Mike

[Otimo]

Great looking turnout!  Mine are a lot more toy-like, and not nearly as photogenic.  They won't be until I figure out all the spacing issues between all the rails and can quit tearing them up and putting them together.  It's taking forever, but I have been trying to get a prewar 249 to go through the switch, and I'm not sure if that was my 1st mistake.  I can't remember if the gears on this prewar loco's wheels are supposed to make it through the guardrails or not. But now I don't have to worry about it so much because the 249 just keeps cycling through the e-unit. It just goes forward then backward then forward and backward as if it has an internal short or something.  Needless to say, I'm not trying to get it through the switch anymore - I'm just trying to get it going!  I'll put repair of this loco off for a while and concentrate on getting all of my postwar stuff through the switches, which are coming along fairly well.

I'm making 072's switches, cutting one 072 curve and a 15" section out of a 40" track to get the size switch I want.  Almost all the rails through the frog are metal, with insulation on top so they don't short out, but every so often I'll test a loco that'll find a bit of exposed metal or else a dead spot, and it'll stop on the switch.

Do you cut or grind a piece out of the diverging straight and curved lead rails where the points of the switch will make contact with them?  I've tried grinding and tin snips and then filing the base of the rail so I get a good, snug fit, but trimmed tubular track has some very nasty sharp edges. Just wondering how you are dealing with this, as I enjoy every aspect of switch building except jagged rail. I also notice your center rail is off-center.  Does this help?  The other question I have for you is about the length of the straight  and the curve on your 042 switch. Are they both exactly one length of track long, or have they been cut?  The curve in the photo looks a bit shorter than a standard piece of curved track to me.

Well, keep us up to date with the photos!  This is a very good and simple tutorial, and I'm glad to know there is someone else out there who is trying to put together a switch or two!

 

[fredswain]

If you want to see a small teaser preview of the turnout, go back a bit in the thread to the picture I have of my small workbench. The turnout is sitting in the middle of it.

[fredswain]

I'm still working on the first one which is the O-54 switch. I actually decided to do the Totally Tubular Trestle first. I thought I'd have fun and name my projects! I started it last night and it is half way done. I am getting it finished with pictures taken before I post the how to on it. I changed the color on it to red mahogany. It looks pretty neat.

The switch is coming. I'm having a few issues myself but think I have solutions. I have started by drawing a template in CAD. I printed it up and cut the ties out and glued them down to the template. The frog and guardrails will be done just like the Fastrack switches are done. I am building these parts out of strip styrene. Each piece of styrene gets cut, bent to fit, and then glued together. When I get it sanded and shaped so it works well, then I'll cast it so I'll have a rubber mold. From there it will be a matter of resin casting with a colored dye in it. Probably brown.

The center rail as it splits through the points end is probably going to be a 1/4" piece of steel that I'll cut out either here at work or slowly at home using a metal blade on a jig saw and a dremel. I'll blacken it when I'm done. If there is interest in a switch kit, I'll look into having the resin castings available as well as a machined center rail for the points end. This is my current plan but if no one wants them then I won't do it. The last issue to solve will be the points themselves. I'm still unsure if I'll do a flat plate style like standard O-27 switches use or if I'll use 2 separate rails that are filed to fit. I'll deal with that when I get there.

I have so many projects going right now that sticking to any one is tough. I really need to get the stud rail and outside 3rd rail product done.

-Fred

[Otimo]

Yes, please do post pictures of these homemade switches!

I'm always looking for info on homemade switches. There are very confusing instructions on how to make one in Commander Morgan's 1950 Model Railroad Book from Fawcett publications, and another one-page drawing and write up on how to do it in an issue of Toy Trains magazine. (Don't know which issue, but I will look it up if and post the issue number if there is any interest.)  But other than that, I've found no info on 3 rail switch building except on this thread and on another one on this forum from several years back.  Are there any other published articles on 3-rail switch building anyone knows of?

I'm currently building my own tubular track switches (O, not O-27) for my own living room carpet central, but I'm having a real hard time getting all my engines through them without shorting out or losing contact. Could be because I am trying to run both pre and postwar engines. I've had to tear out the a couple of times to try repositioning the lead rails and try insulating different parts of these rails, but so far I can only get one engine to run through them properly. As soon as I get one engine to work through them, I try a different engine, I have a whole new set of problems to deal with!

I have bought the instructions for the toylike switches referred to in another post in this thread. I built one, and it works very, very well with all of my engines: railking, postwar and prewar. The instructions that come with them are very complete, and they come with templates for a left, right and wye switch in whichever radius you order. There are also complete step by step instructions and templates for building switch machine coils you can buy from the same source - he's really done a good job on these. I haven't yet built a switch machine from the instructions, but have read and re-read the instructions and everything makes complete sense to me (and this is my first exposure to switch coils and the like!)

I'm now building other switch designs, just for the fun of it, and it sure provides hours and hours of free entertainment when you can't find out what the problem is!  I'm going to try wood rails next to see if that will take care of the shorting problems - or are they conductivity problems? I can't tell just yet. Fred -what are you making the master frogs for your resin castings from?  I  want to try new materials to see if I can get my switches to work right every time!

This is a great thread, and the tutorial and pics are really easy to understand. 

[fredswain]

I laid a couple of O-27 curve pieces using the paper template. That is REAL easy! Take a very small amount of white glue and glue down each tie to the paper template. Use just a tiny amount in a couple of places. You barely want the tie to stay in place. Don't glue along the whole length. This way the paper comes off easily when you are done. Glue and spike the rails down and move on. Each piece with this method took me a little over 20 minutes although at first it will take people longer.

Here's a tip. Stain or paint your ties before you spike them down! It is much more difficult to do after.

I'm really just building a very small O-27 loop with 1 siding and the small trestle which is where these few pieces will. I don't intend to keep it for myself. My friend Chad has decided to do an around the ceiling display in his son's room rather than the large attic layout so I'm not going to pursue this much farther after all. He can't seem to fine the time to do the large layout right now. Maybe someday. This layout will end up being a very small 3' x 4' with fully scenery to show what can be done cheaply with tubular track and a bit of creativity. I'll probably just give it to a friend when I'm done. Then again I know my father in law would probably like it too. Until then, I'll post little tutorials on each little aspect of it. I think I'm going to do ground cover out of felt and faux fur!

-Fred

[fifedog]

Fred - Good tutorial.  I will definitely save this thread for the future. Thanks.

[fredswain]

Here it is, the conclusion of the straight piece.

Here are the pieces that we need to attach the rails to the ties. As we can see we have the 3 rails and the 2 extra track sections used to line them up and hold them.

 

 

Next we need to apply the adhesive. For this we use Pliobond. You need to use a glue that will remain a bit pliable hence the name. Epoxy will not work. Shake the bottle well. It has a way of separating inside and the fist liquid you get out will be the worst smelling thing that won't stick so shake well. Now apply it well to the back of each rail. It is recommended that you apply it to each surface and then let them sit for a few minutes before pressing each piece together. I don't do this. I attach them immediately and begin spiking so when the glue sets up I know each part is held together.

 

 

Now that the rails have glue applied to them, place the rails over the ties. Center them and then lay it down. You can move it a bit if you need to. It won't set up for a while.

 

 

Next comes the fun part. Spiking. I use 3/16" spikes as they don't go all the way through the ties. However if you want to spike directly down to your table, you can glue the ties down to it and then use longer 1/4" spikes. These will protrude through the bottom of the tie and into your mounting surface. Either way is your choice. That method is much more permanent. As you can see, these things are pretty small.

 

 

 

This is where it gets hard to see. I hold the spikes in the end of the pliers and then choose a tie to start at. I typically like to spike each end tie and center tie on both sides of each rail before I proceed with the rest.

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a bad picture with lots of shadows but you get the idea.

 

 

 

 

119 spikes and about 15-20 minutes later, we have a hand spiked piece. Now you have the option of keeping the rails as they are or blackening the center rail.

 

 

 

 

I choose to blacken mine and use a product called Neolube. It is avaiable from Micromark for a few dollars. It is basically graphite suspended in alcohol. It comes with a brush but I use a very small brush and go very slowly. Let each layer dry and then reapply a couple of times. Be warned about this stuff though. It doesn't like to stick and loves to rub off. Even after it is dry. The surface you are applying it to needs to be absolutely clean and oil free. Even skin oil will prevent it from sticking. Keep in mind that it isn't intended to be handled so the more you touch it, the more it will rub off. There is no way around it except to leave it alone. It will also rub off of the top of the center rail but don't worry, it is electrically conductive. Here is a shot showing a non blackened piece vs a blackened one and a bottle of Neolube.

 

 

 

You need to let the glue setup before removing from the jig. On it's own it will take about 24 hours. However there is a faster way. Take the tip of a soldering iron and hold it down next to the spikes directly on the rails over each tie. You want the rail heated up. You know you are doing good if you can smell the glue. Hold over each location for a few seconds. It'll take about 5 minutes to do a piece but will be ready to remove from the jig immediately afterwards. Some ties may still come loose. Don't worry about it. You can either apply a small drop of ca glue to the back of each piece between the tie and rail just to be sure or live with it. This isn't track that is supposed to be setup and taken down on carpet all the time. It should be affixed permanently to a table so any loose ties shouldn't be a concern.

 

That's how you do it. There's an even easier way now though. I have gone to the trouble of putting a small kit together for each type of piece. Each kit includes the necessary amount of ties per that section plus an extra and the necessary amount of spikes plus a few extras. I have also created a template in AutoCAD and printed it up. This too is supplied.  You can glue each tie down to the paper template with a few drops of white glue. Now they won't move. You don't have to have the paper glued down though. Just understand some glue may or may not bleed through. I also have the rail lines drawn so you can lay the rails in place on top of the ties and know where they go. I still recommend a track piece on either side to ensure proper alignment. Apply the Pliobond and spike as shown. Since the piece is on a paper template, you can just leave it alone when you are done so it can dry on its own or you can use the soldering iron method. It doesn't matter. Each kit is a separate track piece so you'll have a template for each. You could also just copy it for spares. This method is even faster and you don't have to commit to buying wooden tie jigs or a thousand ties and spikes at a time. If anyone is interested, contact me for info. They are almost more trouble than they are worth for me but if it helps others, I'm all for it.

 

I currently have them ready to go for the O-27 straights and O-27 curves. The O-42 and O-54 curves will be within the next week or so. I also have Pliobond. I have it for over a dollar less than Fast Tracks sells it for.

 

Next up, the small trestle. Work will also continue on the O-54 turnout and kit.

 

That's it for now.

 

-Fred

 

[fredswain]

I currently only have O-27 profile track. I do have some old taller O-31 track but it is a part of an old department store layout from 1952 and I'm not messing with it.  I've personally always preferred the O-27 mostly because it is the cheapest. I wasn't planning on doing a 27" diameter curve piece but may as well since I have lots of it around. I do have some O-42 though so I'll draw the template in CAD sometime this week. I'll start with an O-42, the I'll do the O-54 and then the O-27 curve. These are all the lower O-27 profile. Then I'll get my first switch done which is the O-54 piece. I'll slowly expand from there. The diameter is a bit strange as Lionel measures from the outside of the ties and not any of the rails. The centerline is tighter than what the number would seem to indicate. My turnout is even tighter still by a small amount. There are variations from track piece to track piece in tinplate so I basically just built the switch as an average of the pieces that I have. They'll work just fine but don't sit there trying to figure out what radius they really are. It doesn't matter as long as they match the track.

In the next week or so I'm also going to start a thread on building a small, simple trestle for use over a ditch or very small gully. That one is very easy but you need to know how to hand lay first so I need to finish the last couple of steps on these before we move on.

-Fred

[steveo]

 I would be interested in the 042 curve, but I think you were saying you are not doing 027 profile at this time? 027 as in .187" high track. Im new so trying to say it the right way. Right now im trying to put down some track for my first layout. All my parts are Lionel and Marx from the 50's, track and trains. I hope I can do alot on my own. Your articles are very good. thanks

[fredswain]

What pieces do you want first? Straight, curve (O-27, O-42, O-54)? How many of each? Do you want them stained like mine? I stain my ties in bulk so it's no big deal if you want them. I'll see what I can work up. I'm still not a business and am not trying to make money off of these little packages. I'm just helping those who are curious out so basically I just want to cover my parts costs and shipping.

-Fred

[asch]

very interested...tell me where to send my check!

[fredswain]

Mechanical. Oilfield related. I live in Houston and that's the predominant industry here. The daily routine anymore is more simple packaging design and drafting rather than any real "fun" stuff. We are really backed up and I'm the fastest at packaging here so I get to do that all day. If my new track company works out and I get too busy, I'll re-evaluate things then. Fortunately I have a wife who is supportive of the idea and who makes more money than I do! We each work an hour away from where we live (in opposite directions!) which is about 50 miles per direction for each of us so anything that would allow us to move to one side of town and save money and time would be welcome. It hasn't been a good time to be looking for new jobs. Especially when you already have a good one. Keep it and be thankful.

As a side note, for those of you interested in upgrading your tubular track as I am showing in this thread but who don't want to take the plunge on large quantities of materials, would anyone be interested if I supplied a simple kit that has the necessary ties, spikes, instructions, and a actual size paper template so you can build your own? I could fiqure out approx what each tie and spike costs individually and then just bag it up. This way no one would need to buy 1000 ties at a time and could play with a couple of pieces to see how they like it before they commit to buying larger quantities. I could print up a paper template that anyone could just use white glue to glue the ties down to it and then lay and spike the rail on top. Then just cut off the paper or go ahead and glue it down. It doesn't matter. Keep in mind it would probably still cost around $2 or a little more per track piece but at least you could give a few pieces a shot for cheap. If it's your thing, then you can go buy parts in bulk. I'm not going to supply those but it's easy to tell where to get them. I just figured I could separate some pieces out for those curious but unsure about committing to a large project.

If it's of interest to anyone, let me know and I'll throw it together.

-Fred

[servoguy]

 Fred,

What kind of engineering do you do?

Bruce Baker

[fredswain]

The frogs and guardrails are going to be a single resin casting. I'll supply that part, the tie template, the center rail piece between the points, and instructions. You'll need to supply the track parts such as a curve piece and straights. You'll also need to buy the spikes and glue. I am still working out the points details so I'm still not sure if those will be a tutorial in the instructions or an actual supplied piece. You'll also need to supply the mechanism to actuate the turnout whether it is a ground or some other means. I am not making these powered. I started with an O-54 curve which is why it's first. It wasn't a strategic decision. It's just the first curve piece I grabbed out of my bin of track pieces. I could do an O-42 or an O-72 but I don't have any O-27 profile O-72 curve pieces so I'd have to find a few of those in order to do one. I do have some O-42 though. I'll start with the 54 as it is much of the way complete and then I'll do the 42. I don't know if I'll do a 27 or not. I'll also do a cheap, simple trestle tutorial and maybe a little kit. It's so simple that maybe not. Between the tubular projects and getting my business, Delta Track Systems (stud rail, outside 3rd rail) off of the ground while still working a full time engineering job, time is pretty limited so I do little things when I can. I have time for the O-27 stuff between the other stuff as some of it is just a waiting game for supplies and prototype pieces to arrive. My days pretty much start at about 6 am and end at midnight every night just to get this all done. Stay tuned. -Fred

[asch]

 

Wille be able to order the part sfor the switches right from you on here or what? Also I saw that you are making o54 switches, what about 042 and 072? Will we be able to the the parts for those as well?. I am very impressed by this series!

[fredswain]

I got my new supply of spikes! I'll finish up the straight tutorial this week and show what is needed to do a curve as well. Then I'll finish up my molds for the O-54 turnout so I can get kits done for those wanting to build their own. It's going to be a bit to difficult to build them my way so I'll supply the difficult parts and the instructions and then anyone can do it on their own. I think it's time the tubular track users get in on the hand laying game too and that includes their own turnouts! Stay tuned over the next few days for the conclusion to the straight. -Fred

[fredswain]

Sorry I haven't updated in a while. I am still waiting for a new supply of spikes to arrive and can't really do anything else without them. Once I get them in, I'll finish the last little bit showing the bonding and spiking process on the straight piece and then show how to lay a curve. It is mostly the same though. I'll also show you have to make a very cheap and simple little trestle that is good for small ditches and gullies. It could be built in about an hour for a few dollars and looks pretty nice.

I have worked on a O-54 turnout which I teased you with above as it is in the picture of the workbench above. I am still working on the mold for the frog and guardrails which will ultimately be cast out of resin. That one is a bit of work up front but will be easy for anyone wanting to build their own turnout to just use my castings and some cut apart track.

Stay tuned.

Fred

[asch]

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Please continue this series......awsome work!