Help!
I am a true newbie to O-gauge, ready to take the plunge. HOWEVER - I guess I have a couple of questions before I buy my first engine. I am interested in the GN line. I have done LOTS of research online; checking both product lines, catalogs, and have some talks with a couple of dealers. I see Lionel and MTH both have nice diesel engines, however, I do not know which brand is better to pursue. Any pros and cons on each? I imagine this is an ongoing debate, but I appreciate honest feedback from both sides:
Also - I am very confused about the control sytems - - the DCC vs. Lionel Legacy:
Thanks in advance for those brave enough to answer. I really want to dive in, but I need help first...
GN Mountain Goat,
Your questions are those that plague everyone now a days. Like you, I am new to this forum. I have been into model railroading since I received my first set for Christmas in 1953. To decide on what control system to use, I suggest that you purchase and read Classic Toy Trains book, "Command Control for Toy Trains". I bought and read this book and found it very helpful and I am not employed by the publisher. Currently, I am running Lionel's TMCC and conventional transformer control. As to motive power, I have Lionel, MTH, Atlas O, K Line and Williams. I prefer Post War Lionel, #1 They are bullet proof and easy to repair if needed. #2 Simple operation. #3 It is what I grew up with. #4 People can't believe that it all still works as good as new. On my new layout I am probably going to go with a combo of conventional and DCC so that I can run my MTH engines to their potential. I have had no problems with my Lionel TMCC and will keep it and use it on the Holiday layout and maybe integrate it, for like you I am undecided. As to the Legacy System, I am undecided. Track: I have been using tubular track, but I am upgrading on my new layout. I am in the research stage also. A local hobby shop recomended MTH track, but after talking to people and reading comments about it I have my doubts. What I do when purchasing an engine, car or any addition, if I really like it I buy it. Then when I get home and I hear, "You bought another engine?" from my wife, I think of my motto, "It is better to beg for forgiveness than to plead for permission."
Good Luck, John
Only 2 opinions ... steer away from mth track and switches .... and older model MTH engines . As far as track ... fastrack or cargraves .....
Thanks, John. I apreciate your feedback, and will look for that book. The hobby has been itching at me for years, and it was a visit to a brother in law this holiday season that gave me the kick in the pants to begin. So, it seems that it may be best to use the DCC for MTH trains? SInce you have so many engines, do they all differ so in quality?
Matt
PS - I agree with your motto, and apply it all the time!
Thanks, Ole Timer. Since I was looking at some MTH engines, what is considered "old"? I mean, is there a year cut off where the quality picked up?
I think he means anything pre-PS-2. With PS-1 engines, the memory would get scrambled if you let the battery die. There are work-arounds to this and fixes available now. For the prices you can get older MTH PS-1 engines, you could easily rip out their electronics and replace with a TMCC/Cruise/RailSound package from ERRCo.
Don't let the electronics nay-sayers scare you. Everything is replaceable with usually something MUCH better!
Jon
Hi MATT and welcome to the forum.
As far as MTH is concerned, they have two classes of engines, Premiere and Railking. Premier have alot of detail and are all scale sized. Where Railking is more your traditional or 0-27 size engines. They are smaller scaled sized and don't have all the detailed work. Stay with anything that has Protosound 2 labeled on it. The older PS1 engines when the battery goes dead it will scramble your board. I have both Legacy and DCS and run seperatly. Both systems are great. Get into the hobby but watch out it is addicting. Have fun.
laz57
Welcome Matt!
Aas to choosing between TMCC and DCS, I can't help because I like the old fashioned conventional control. But even here, I'm an odd nut as my layout is set up to run off DC power whereas nearly all 3-rail operators use AC power.
TMCC versus DCS? The Beatles versus the Rolling Stones? Apples versus Pears? Ford versus Chevy? This is all really a matter of personal choice as to what is really better. And opinions WILL differ.
MAYBE if I had a large layout, I might be more intune to using a digital control system of some kind. BUt I have a small layout and find it isn't necessary. Plus I have done the hobby on a tight budget, so the lower cost and lower function trains suit this financial constraint.
Kooljock might consider me one of those "electronics nay-sayers." But he is right that everything is upgradable or replaceable as far as electronics and circuit boards go. But the thing I notice from reading the train forums is the cost of doing this. I've read many an unhappy post from guys who need to replace circuitry of a loco and find it can easily cost a couple or several hundred dollars. And sometimes you have to get creative as the specific boards you need are no longer available.
Circuit boards don't last forever, period. No one thinks twice about replacing low cost consumer electronic items like answering machines, portable CD players or cell phones, etc. Even computers, which are a little more expensive (but not as much so as years ago).
On the other hand, I have noticed this perception in the train world: Because the old Lionel trains have lasted so long and are so durable (with proper care), that it is automatically assumed that if it says "Lionel" on the box, that the new advanced trains are going to be just as durable and last just as long. You pay more... you get more, right?!
The reality seems to be quite the opposite. The options offered by the new electronics are awesome to say the least, but the high end train locomotive is subject to the same failure possibilities as many other electronic kinds of products... but more costly to fix or replace because the higher end trains are more complicated and also low production run items. Sometimes it is more cost effective, as Kooljock mentioned, to use an after-market brand of electronics.
Years ago I had some very top line stereo equipment. An Onkyo CD deck was giving me constant problems though and was serviced several times and still never worked right. I finally gave up spending more money on it and bought a used Magnavox CD deck for less than one single repair on the other deck. I got more than 10 years out of before it finally died.
As with everything in life, you make decisions what is important to YOU. If you spend a grand on a loco that is your baby, then adding a couple hundred dollars more might not be a big deal. But seems for many, it still is a big deal as their are many grumbles about the high costs of trains versus their durability.
As the old saying goes "you can't have everything." As a conventional operator, there are limitations for sure, but I'm not really bothered by them. But there's also a costs savings too. If you need to have more on your layout to be happy, it is not only going to cost more to have it, but it WILL cost more to maintain it too.
As far as roadnames, I've learned to repaint to get what I want. I like the Lehigh Valley as well as some of the current modern roads, like CSX, Norfolk Southern, Conrail, BNSF, CPA, CNA etc. and these are names that are often ignored on lower cost starter trains.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Goat / Matt .... I think Laz and Brianl027 pretty much explained in more detail what I meant . Protosound 2 in mth only .... it is a bit costly and sometimes a real pain in da *** to try to modify ps1 engines and not worth the time and expense to me . I started out with tmcc and all the bells and whistles .... but now have switched over 90% back to conventional engines ... Williams to say . 1 or 2 engines blarring out crew talk is enough for me ... in fact it kind of wears out after awhile and just a good steam chugging with smoke and whistle/horn is enough . If you're new especially ... you DO NOT want the headaches PS1 incurred ! As far as control systems ... TMCC - DCS - and Legacy are all great systems . That is a decision you will have to make as none except the tmcc are descently low priced . All I can say is you can pick up a tmcc control system pretty darn low priced now and they are as dependable and solid as a rock with alot of the bells and whistles and crew talk you may ever want as they say ... and can be merged with the other control systems later ! And get 1 good higher output transformer/power supply for now .... I know you don't want to have to ship your engines and usually 100's of dollars off to some shop for modifications when you first start out .... it'll take alot of the fun out of the hobby FAST !
One last remark .... watch out for any shorts on your track or access. ==== they'll blow a circuit board engine like quick sometimes ... whereas a conventional engine can take the strain alot better if it happens . Now there are alot of cars with tmcc railsounds that work great and sound wonderful if you prefer not buying engines with it in and you can run them with any engine and a heck of alot cheaper to replace than disabling an engine because of a blown board ... remember when the board dies === the engine dies .... except on conventional engines . I'd rather have a disabled car than an expensive engine .... at least you can still haul the car aound ....
As far as road names ... depends on what type of collecting you'll be doing .. some want all the same on cars and engines ... some want more realistic looks ... how many actual real trains do you see in real life with ALL THE SAME road names on every car and engine ? As far as collecting for your seperate collection ... all the same is the way to go .... if you then want realism ... mix and match them for your layout . You can do both .
All brands of Remote Control engines will run on TMCC or Legacy EXCEPT MTH. They require their DCS system. Many modelers have both, me I am very happy just having the TMCC system. The newer Lionel Legacy system will also run TMCC and TMCC will run a Legacy engine but you will not get all the newer frills.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Ole TimerOnly 2 opinions ... steer away from mth track and switches .... and older model MTH engines . As far as track ... fastrack or cargraves .....
The above quote pretty much sums it up. I have all 3 systems, running on one layout, and have them running concurrently. DCS will run anything on the layout, Conventional, TMCC, DCS, and Legacy. (Does require the TMCC Command Base). I have a ball. Don't feel you may a wrong decision with anyone of the systems. AND there will always be room for expansion. You may also want to get a video on Dcs originaly put out by OGR, it is very good.
Welcome Aboard, and there are a lot of guys here with a LOT of information! Don't be bashful about asking questions!
Don
Thanks, Laz!!
Proto sound 2 - got it! Thanks!n Does the Protosound 2 require a battery, too?
Don't use MTH track or switchs.They are junk. As others have said the MTH PS-1 locos are bad news. TMCC/Legacy is very easy to use. DCS is hard and there are people who have written books on how to use DCS. Evidently MTH does not support their system that well. You can operate PS-2 engines with Cab-1.
I had nothing but bad experiences with MTH and only buy and operate Lionel, Williams, Weaver and Atlas. And you can get them with TMCC.
Yes PS-2 requires a battery too.
Thanks, Brianel027, for the information and explanation. At first, I thought this would be simple; go out and buy a train set , set it up, and let'er go! (How naive) Then, once I started checking out catalogs, talking to shop keepers, and this forum over the past few days, I realized I opened up a BIG can of worms - but one that I KNOW I am happyI did! This will be fun.. (and like previoulsy stated in an ealier reply).. a fun addiction.
I never realized the factor of the circuitry and the boards going bad; is this common?
GN_mountain_goat Thanks, Brianel027, for the information and explanation. At first, I thought this would be simple; go out and buy a train set , set it up, and let'er go! (How naive) Then, once I started checking out catalogs, talking to shop keepers, and this forum over the past few days, I realized I opened up a BIG can of worms - but one that I KNOW I am happyI did! This will be fun.. (and like previoulsy stated in an ealier reply).. a fun addiction. I never realized the factor of the circuitry and the boards going bad; is this common?
GN_mountain_goataddiction
You can still go out and buy a simple train set. In fact, I'd recommend it. You might read about track brands and styles, so you can select a style of track that you can continue to expand as your interest and money-supply grow. If you're already as rich as Croesus, by all means go out and buy all that fancy stuff and spend the rest of your life trying to make sense out of the instruction books, tapes and CDs.
If you don't protect the electronic (as opposed to mere electrical) circuits against voltage spikes with transient voltage suppressor diodes (TVS diodes) or their equivalents, you are very likely to blow a circuit board. Contrary to one of the biggest myths in all of three-rail traindom, fast-acting fuses or circuit breakers alone will give little or no protection. Some equipment already has such protection built in, but you need to know which.
Fuses and circuit breakers protect the transformer and associated wiring against High Currents. TVS protects against High Voltages, a.k.a. spikes. With modern "solid state" (circuit boards, etc.) equipment you need both. Others may tell you different. Ignore my advice at your own risk.
"Gee, my new modern train just died For No Reason. Really? That's too bad. Did you have TVS protection? No. Well, I'm not surprised."
.
Matt,
The majority of my motive power is post war Lionel and conventional transformer controlled Modern Lionel and K-Line. The post war Lionel built prior to 1960, seem to be built like a rock, but there are exceptions. My personal favorites are the "Baby Hudsons", such as the 685. I have a number of TMCC equiped Lionel, K-Line and AtlasO that have performed flawlessly with the exception of a K-Line A-5 Steam switcher with a coupler problem. I only have 1 DCC MTH and that is the Aero Train, which I only run in conventional mode. As to differring in quality, this past Christmas I purchased a new Lionel 0-6-0 Docksider for about $120. The detailing is nice and it performs great. It makes my #53 Lionel Rio Grande Snow Plow (1959 vintage) look like a cheap piece of junk in looks and performance eventhough it is worth between $120-$300. I can honestly say that I have never purchased an engine that I was totally disappointed with. Then again, I buy what appeals to me and when I buy used, I figure in what may go wrong and I pay or bid accorndingly.
John
The more that I think about, right now you are getting yourself all wound up and you want to do a layout with everything without getting your feet wet. First you have to crawl before you can walk. Why not get your feet wet and some experience first by getting a simple ready to run set? You can build a small layout, expand it, experiment and enjoy yourself, before laying out the real big bucks. This way you can judge for yourself and make mistakes and learn from them on a small scale.
Jus a thought, John
Welcome aboard. I too am new to the forum. I am currently starting my own year round layout with the help of my Dad, who has been in the hobby since he was thirteen and still going.
As for me thanks to him i am hooked as well. Your dilemma is not an unusual one, as i am in the same sort of. When it comes to track i had a hard time deciding between MTH Scale Track, Atlas O, and Lionel Fastrack. I have since descided to go with Fastrack.
As far as power i am still uncertain. I would like to try the TMCC remote control; but am leaning to more conventional controls as most of the Legacy engines are out of my price range and i find to be a waste having a remote control to do so much for engines that are more for a conventional nature. So having said that i like the MTH Z1000's, which to me have enough power to run a basic layout. I already have one that came with my Southern Pacific Bantam Daylight Passenger set that i have and it works out just fine. The bulk of the power will go directly to the track power as they have a smaller controoler for just accessories that you can get for around 20 bucks or so.
This all my just be a matter of opinion; but go with what you feel is right for you. After all it's your empire that you are going to build which means that your the boss. Have fun i try and keep me posted as to what you have decided!!
TrainMaster Command Control is much easier to wire and get responses from locos and cars. Just make sure all the command wires are tight when turning on the power.
All of the Proto-Sounds systems require a battery.
The post 2004 Proto-Sounds 2.0 system locomotives have the ability to be recharged by sitting neutral on the tracks and through a power port.
DCS is trickier to use when wiring a lot of tracks because the signal through the tracks has to be sent so that it does not rebound or duplicate through the track.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Thank, BF - the more feeback I've been getting, the more challenging and indepth I see this hobby can be. I need to begin with the training wheels first!
If you haven't checked it out already, watch Jon Brooks' (Kooljock) video of his recent published layout. His system is TMCC, which operates everything on his layout.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/166128.aspx
BTW - I have an uncle who was an engineer on the Wishram Division.
Matt ... instead of a starter set ..... how about some fastrack .... a transformer ..... and your first engine .... then build a set yourself . Starter sets usually have lower end cars and very smalll minimal power supplies and you pay for items you don't end up wanting . If you shop Ebay you can take your time and get exactly what you want instead . All engines will run in conventional mode until you pick a control system .... since they're one of the more expensive items " control system " for a bigger one .... let that be last on the big buy list . You won't end up with boxes of cars later you don't or won't use . And as Kevin said a TMCC Cab1 control system does alot of bells and whistles for alot less money and can be incorporated/merged into a DCS and Legacy system/bricks later !
Take your time .... there's no hurry .... and you WON'T waste money .
Fifedog ... my cousin was an engineer for over 35 years on the Western Maryland - Chessie system out of Cumberland and my grandfather was a conductor and before that a brakeman way back in the steam era until he retired . Looks like both of us come from a railroad family . My cousin still lives in LaVale and has hours upon hours of stories .
GN MOUNTAIN GOAT,
Sorry didn't respond to your question about the battery. Yes ps 2 engines need a battery or a BCR. Which is a diode that requires at less 10 nvolts of track power for one minute to run. Good thing about the BCRs are you don't have to replace them. Here is a link to the BCR
http://www.jandwelectronics.com/
I have been an O gauge model railroader since the late 1940's. I shelved the hobby after being drafted and building a carreer and a family. I have been active since the early 1980's. My problem living in the panhandle of Florida is there are very few hobby shops and the local hobby is deffinately NOT model railroading. I learn everything about trains strictly from magazines and on-line. All purchases are mail order. I have not been to a train show in 10 years. That I miss.
I use Gargraves track on a large permanent highrail layout. I use Ross Custom switches. I love both. I have 14 lionel O-72 switches mint in the box that I'll never use. I have no experience with the newer track from Lionel, Atlas, etc. To me, sectional track should be used for temporary layouts, not permanent ones. I run all trains conventionally. But I do plan to buy MTH DCS system soon. The reason is I believe, MTH DCS can operate Lionel engines but Lionel system cannot operate MTH equipment. Track is not a problem with either system. However, a solid track system will result in better operation in any mode. In my opinion, sectional track cannot provide that level of solid installation.
I suggest you begin in conventional mode. Buy whatever brand you like. All suppliers have great equipment in the GN design. Play and have fun. Then invest in a control system. But get the trains running first. Learn from that point onward.
Not a diode. It's a capacitor.
Bob Nelson
The Williams SD45 works fine for pulling a lot of freight cars. What has to be solved on the Williams SD45 are the Headlights and Cabin Lights. The headlights needs to be replaced with several light emitting diodes to be seen at power settings less than 18 volts.
Thanks, Andrew. When you say "solved" is this a problem inherent with the engine, or, something that happens and needs to be corrected? If one is reasonably capabale with electronics, can one easily make this correction? Where would one (I) find the proper parts?
Williams engines are good ... reliable work horses .
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