I am new and don;t quite understand what MPC is. Is iit who bought out lionel or somthing like that?
It's Model Products Corporation, a division of General Mills, which built Lionel trains from 1970 to 1985. After 1973, it was also called "Fundimensions".
Bob Nelson
Are MPC built trains from 1970 to 85' as good as the postwar stuff built by lionel themselves? I notice many similarities, but I heard the MPC motors are not as good.
There's a lot about it on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel,_LLC
How about your opinion as well. Thanks.
I think quality was generally lower.
MPC early years, they were building from leftovers and did a great job of bringing Lionel back. As things improved and they got the hang of it MPC engines with Magnatraction were just as good as the originals. One of the good things they did was reproduce post war engines with real RR names which put badly needed parts back on the market.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
According to TM Books & Video's "A Century of Lionel Trains", MPC also used needle-point axles/bearings (I forget the exact term) on their rolling stock. This allowed for longer and lighter trains to be operated.
Fordiesel69How about your opinion as well
They made some changes that, apparently, still affect us today. I just found out, for example, that the collector shoes are different than the PW & don't work as well on the PW 027 turnouts.
I think this is also about the time that stuff got made in China instead of the USA. The Postwar stuff was really built, but it is getting pretty old now. I love mine, but some of the newer stuff is good, too.
wyomingscout
Don't forget the U-Boats with lights, (no sounds, no smoke, no horn, no bell), and all the featherlight cars with plastic trucks. (non operating couplers, cars actually "float" over a switch. Then there is the detail, ..........
MPC managed to keep the name alive, but IMO was certainly the low point of the product quality. Unfortunately they were the ONLY thing available at the time. And I bought a lot of it.
Don
"They made some changes that, apparently, still affect us today. I just found out, for example, that the collector shoes are different than the PW & don't work as well on the PW 027 turnouts.
wyomingscout"
Oh Good Golly!
1. Some Lionel/MPC items were mechanically inferior, some were superior, and some were built identically to their Post War counterparts.
2. Lionel/MPC focused heavily on improvments in decoration. Compare a Post War Lionel boxcar to a MPC car, and the difference is night and day. The trade-off was that to achieve this, some details in tooling had to be omitted. This is clear in the lack of rivet detail in all Post 1971 boxcars and the removal of the rivet row on the N5c Cabin Car.
3. Lionel/MPC produced their trains in the Lionel plants on the Mount Clemens/Chesterfield Michigan town line. Lionel did not move to China until 2001. As noted, the MPC Era ended with General Mills spinning off their toy divisions in 1985. Richard P. Kughn purchased the Lionel Division from Kenner-Parker in 1986.
Jon
dbaker48MPC managed to keep the name alive, but IMO was certainly the low point of the product quality.
Pick any year of MPC production... even 1970. They were all better than 1967, 1968, or 1969. And it was better than some stuff from 1960-on.
MPC immediately did away with single-axle drive plastic truck Alcos & switchers, a huge improvement to all of those sets. The 8010 & 8111 switchers were vast improvements over the 634, 645. MPC did not bother with crap like the 1061 to get up & rolling - after establishing the product line & improving some every year, they then went into lower-end DC sets for mass merchandising, but even these sets benefited from the new improved decoration techniques.
Rob
Personally, I've been collecting the Hi-Cube boxcars and auto-racks from the mid-70's. They have great graphics, a wide range of roadnames, and really track well.
I was with a General Mills division ( Eddie Bauer Inc ) at the same time Lionel was part of General Mills. During that period of time General Mills owned over 60 non-food companies. There was a hostile takeover attempt of General Mills so General Mills sold all of their non-food companies for cash to buy back stock to prevent another hostile takeover. The last two non-food companies sold was Eddie Bauer and Ann Taylor, they were the 2 most profitable non-food companies. Eddie Bauer was sold to Spiegel Inc and Ann Taylor was sold to a Japanese group.
Bill T.
Jon and Rob have it right.
Sure, MPC used more plastic than was previously used. But everything you have in your home today has more plastic in it that at one time... that's not necessarily a bad thing.
MPC gets a bad rap for the following:
- Plastic (or nylon) gears in locomotives.
- Plastic wheel sets on some low end starter sets.
- Plastic snap "rivets" to hold trucks on cars, again on low end starter sets.
- All plastic trucks including coupler armatures.
- Plastic worm gear on the axles inside truck motor mountings, which I concur was probably the worse move made by MPC.
MPC also made improvements. As mentioned, decoration was light years better than anything done before. New products were introduced for the first time in years. Lionel sets were back in major retailers, like K-Mart. And road name selection during the MPC years has never been better.... Lionel today hasn't come close to the variety of roads offered during the MPC years.
But for some nagging reason the legacy of MPC being not up to par lives on. Though it does benefit the budget train buyer as MPC products for the most part do not generate the demand of postwar products, so prices are still relatively very good - and a bargain when compared to either postwar or brand new current prices.
Despite the many complaints about MPC (and even current low end Lionel) I have had no major problems I couldn't fix myself. No DOA's, no failures. All my MPC locos still have their original gears and many are now 40 years old. And parts are easily available for almost everything.
Grranted they are simplier products. And they don't do as much either. BUT there's less that can go wrong too. There's a distinct advantage in that!
There are many current better products that cannot make the same claim and will probably never be able to make it as parts dealers have shared their frustration with me as to not being able to get parts for many high end products. One parts dealer, well respected on this forum, confessed he thought many of today's better products were destined to become shelf queens and not much more than junk because of the lack of necessary parts.
Sorry folks, don't have that problem with MPC stuff. Even my "cheap" MPC DC lcoos are still running (original major parts) and some of those are now around 25-30 years old. Call it what you will, but based on my personal experience, I call that good!!
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
When I left the HO world a few years ago, I read a lot about MPC (that is, after I had purchased a few accessories) and, what I read, kind-of changed my 'mind set'.
But I have to say that all my MPC stuff is working just fine. Guess it depends on what you have and what you are looking for. Enjoy.
wyomingscoutI think this is also about the time that stuff got made in China instead of the USA. The Postwar stuff was really built, but it is getting pretty old now. I love mine, but some of the newer stuff is good, too.wyomingscout
As was already noted, for the most part all train production during the MPC era was USA based.
The primary factory was in Mt. Clemens, Michigan, and in the early MPC years some production was still active in the lower level of the historic Lionel, Hillside, NJ factory.
Some of the building kits came from overseas vendors, and the excellent "Standard O" line of freight cars were manufactured in Michigan using tooling from a German company.
In 1985 an attempt was made to move production to Mexico, but it was such a disaster, that it was brought back to Michigan is less than a year.
There are some true gems from the MPC era, and many can be obtained at a reasonable cost from E-Bay and larger train dealers. As an example Nicholas Smith trains in Pennsylvania carries an extensive MPC inventory.
MPC products are great for hobbyists who prefer conventional operation (like me).
Ken
krapug1As was already noted, for the most part all train production during the MPC era was USA based.The primary factory was in Mt. Clemens, Michigan, and in the early MPC years some production was still active in the lower level of the historic Lionel, Hillside, NJ factory.
I stand corrected. Thanks, guys. The 5122 turnouts I have that were made in China must be newer than I thought.
Just for a little more info wyomingscout. At one point, certainly by the time Richard Kughn obtained ownership of Lionel, some production was done in both Hong Kong and China. I have some 027 switches and accessories like the Snap-Together Truss Bridge that clearly stated on the packaging "Made in Hong Kong." On one of my early NYC Flyer Sets, although the box says clearly "Made in America" when I took apart the engine to replace a light bulb, the inside of the shell says "Made in Maccau."
So obviously like Weaver, even before Lionel closed their Mt. Clemens plants, they were using some foreign made components and parts for US assembly. I think it was the 1996 Lionel catalog where in the introduction it stated, even at that point in time, certain products in the line were being outsourced in China.
I say this not to knock Lionel. By 1991 K-Line had moved their production to China, and MTH's production has been overseas from the very beginning. For Lionel, the pressure had been building for some time.
brianel, I'm not knocking Lionel, either. Not even the foreign manufactured items. But a train dealer told me that the MPC and other items were enough different to cause problems sometimes in the PW products. For example, the PW 3461 I bought refurbished doesn't operate on the 027 turnouts I have; the collector shoes pull out. None of my original PW operating cars have any trouble.
He also said that some track manufacturers now have a plastic insert for turnouts to compensate for the difference.
The newer plastics do provide more detail and that's great, too. I just got some MTH Railking passenger cars that look fine (to me) with my PW diesels
wyomingscout.
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