In the February 2010 CTT, pg 27, in the Q&A column, Richard Sheats asked how to slow down these wonderful little locomotives. Ray L. Plummer dropped the ball, the problem is as much the Post War ZW, as it is the locomotive. The Little Docksider, not having any complex electronics and/or sound system to use any power, has a starting voltage that is much lower than the PW ZW's minimum starting voltage (the New ZW, also has a high minimum voltage as well). I have several of these little engines, and have given several to my Nephews, they are VERY capable of smooth slow speed running and GREAT for switching. The answer to the problem is a transformer with a lower minimum voltage. A great solution is the often maligned (unjustifiably in MY opinion) Lionel CW-80 transformer.
The CW-80 has a near zero minimum voltage, and will run the Docksider, and many other small locomotives such as K-Line Porters and Plymouths very nicely at slow speeds. Unfortunately many transformers just do not have a minimum voltage low enough to smoothly run many locomotives at slow speeds, this includes Post war and New ZW's, MTH Z-500, 750 and 1000 transformers, in my experience( I have never used an MTH Z-4000, so I don't know about it), I am sure there are others as well.
If you are having trouble getting a locomotive to start smoothly or run slowly, it may not be your locomotive at all, but rather your transformer, try a transformer with a lower minimum voltage, you may well be Pleasantly surprised.
Myself, I have been very pleased with the Lionel Docksider, in how slow and smoothly it will run as well as with it's pulling power, which surely is better than the prototype could manage(mine has handled 21 cars, not enough track set up for any more at the time)
Richard, I Hope that you are a forum member, and see this thread, try a CW-80, I think that you will be as Happy with your Docksider as I am with mine.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
1033, anyone?
Bob Nelson
Doug, this kind of comment is made of many of the starter kinds of locos, or in gneral locos made by Lionel in the late 1980's - mid-1990's, before the advent of TMCC. This also goes for the basic K-Line locos - all before mentioned the type with DC can motors mounted in the trucks, with electronic circuit board reverse units.
These locos need MUCH LESS power to get going than what is usually delivered at minimal voltage by most postwar Lionel transformers. It was a very common comment in the train magazines when reviewing these kinds of locos to read the complaint "they run like jack rabbits and don't run slow at all." Nonsense and not true!
The problem in this instance is that most postwar and MPC made Lionel transformers put out a minimal 6 volts to the track. So of course, these locos will never run slow with that kind of transfromer, usally the kind used in the magazine reviews, like the ZW.
The problem IS NOT postwar MPC transformers, nor is it the locos. One just needs to match up the right kind of transformer with this kind of locomotive. The postwar 1033 and the KW are the only two postwar transformer that have settings that start at 0 volts, yet deliever enough on the high end to run these locos.
Most modern made transformers (as the CW was mentioned) will also work. The only trouble here is when allowing youngsters to run the trains. Most modern transformers while having a zero starting voltage also go up to 18 volts on the high side, which will send any of the before mentioned locomotives right off the track - even with a train behind them.
A final note by my experience: the Lionel 4-4-2 steam locos that come with so many starter sets do fine with a higher voltage setting. I run mine with the A-U setting of my 1033 which puts 5-16 voltage range to the track. I've also tried a variety of other power packs, such as those made by MRC and even a very nice one that came with a Bachmann HO set that resembled a modern stationary-type computer mouse.
Many of these HO power packs and HO oriented MRC power packs run the DC can motored locos above mentioned just fine. BUT they do not have enough reserve power to run anything more than the loco alone with a few non-operating cars.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Brianel,
I only mentioned the CW-80 specifically, because it is the only one that I have personal experience with, that has a near zero minimum voltage, I don't have any experience with the KW and 1033's. I have used the MTH Z500-1000 transformers, and their minimum voltage is too high for many locomotives also.
The K-Line Plymouths, Porters and RMT Beeps are safe at any throttle setting that I have used.
I just hated reading that "This 0-27 locomotive has a minimum speed that's too high for switching operations. Toy trains tend to be that way" I KNOW BETTER, and really like the little docksiders, when run with an appropriate transformer, they are great little locomotives.
This may have been mentioned above and I missed it by skipping some but how about tmcc with a tpc-300 or 400 or powermaster and run it from your legacey or command base and hand held would you not be able to get the low voltage you want that way ( I'm not that up on this idea but more asking than say it will work)
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
"I just hated reading that "This 0-27 locomotive has a minimum speed that's too high for switching operations. Toy trains tend to be that way" I KNOW BETTER, and really like the little docksiders, when run with an appropriate transformer, they are great little locomotives."
Doug, I'm assuming that quote is from the magazine? Yeah, that attittude really annoys me too, because I like you also know better. The K-Line locos were always mentioned in the mags as runmning too fast, yet I can run mine at a nice steady slow crawl.
Probably not as good as one of the top notch locos with digital sensors for speed control, but still pretty slow and at a fraction of the cost.
As I said Doug (and I'm not knocking the CW) the nice thing about the KW and the 1033 are the lower top voltage rates. The B-U setting of 0-11 volts on the 1033 is PERFECT for running these DC can motored locos that have no additional electronics.
It's not magic... it's just having the right transformer. I'm sure the magazines wouldn't test an MTH loco with TMCC control (or vise-versa), yet they'll use a ZW to run DC can motored locos. At least mention these locos run first rate and slowly with the RIGHT transformer.
I had exactly the same question as rtraincollector:
rtraincollectorThis may have been mentioned above and I missed it by skipping some but how about tmcc with a tpc-300 or 400 or powermaster and run it from your legacy or command base and hand held would you not be able to get the low voltage you want that way ( I'm not that up on this idea but more asking than say it will work)
This may have been mentioned above and I missed it by skipping some but how about tmcc with a tpc-300 or 400 or powermaster and run it from your legacy or command base and hand held would you not be able to get the low voltage you want that way ( I'm not that up on this idea but more asking than say it will work)
Does anyone run a Lionel dockside switcher with a TPC-300 or -400? I'm thinking of getting one to get better low-speed conventional operation of some engines.
Bob Anderson
A TPC works great on any conventional engine. By setting the minimum voltage you can slow them to a stop w/o tripping the e-unit as well as setting max voltage to eliminate flying off the curves.
The only real drawback is the initial cost if you don't already have TMCC, adding a TPC would not be all that bad but having to buy the TMCC and a TPC wouldn't seem all that cost effective to me.
Here's an example of what I sometimes run w/TPC's,
a docksider tripple header
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
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Proud New Member Of The NRA
Yes that was from the magazine, I did miss the word realistic directly before switching operations, but it was a good faith quote, if not exactly verbatim.
Please don't get me wrong, I really like CTT, but sometimes they need to do a bit better research. Another case of repeatedly giving false info, is how they seem to make it neccessary to do complex wiring to use both TMCC/Legacy with DCS. My understanding is that you hook them both up simultaneously, but independantly, no need to use DPDT switches and choose one or the other, they will co-exisit just fine, without interfering with each other, WHY make it more complicated than it needs to be. I like CTT, but I can't always trust the information printed in it.
Doug, I made a similar comment about the magazine's electrical savvy some time back. It was removed.
Bob,
Maybe they need to hire a couple of EEs?
Bruce
servoguy Bob, Maybe they need to hire a couple of EEs? Bruce
Probably just one would be sufficient, how about it Bob?
Hi Bob,
A while back, I got to discussing the phase control, rather than chopped sine wave of the CW-80 on another forum, and was asked about my source of info, I mentioned you, and another forum member there was familiar with you, and stated that he thought that you had at least one electrical degree from MIT. Just curious, what training and real world experience do you have? I do know that I wish I understood half of what you have probably forgotten, never mind know about electrical theory, I was just wondering. Your advice has always been spot on from what I have seen.
Other options include adding a resistor to the motor or adding a ERRCo Cruise Commander. That would give you TMCC and cruise together!
Jon
Dough,
I agree with you of Bob Nelson's knowledge of electricity and it's complications.
I believe, Bob is a Professor and is kind enough not to intimidate us.
Ralph
Well I would not ever question Lionelsoni's electrical knowledge... he's helped me! This is one of the great things about these internet train forums, which can offer advice and tips so readily. And many based on an operator's practical experience, at least when I offer tips that's what they are based upon.
As far as the magazine staff expertise, the hobby is more complicated than ever before. And most participants have some sort of bias, hopefully based upon their own experiences of the choices they have made and not inuendo or rumor.
I for one cannot make constructive comments about TMCC, DCS or anything of the like. But being what one might call a "lower end" operator, I can make constructive comments about these sorts of trains.
Sometimes, operationsal drawbacks are a result of economic considerations. For example, the DC only train sets that have been made by Lionel and K-Line. These sets offen get negative comments in part because they are not compatible to operate with a normal Lionel (or any make) AC transformer. The main problem with these sets was the cheap Tyco type power pack included with these sets. These power packs start with a high minimal voltage not stated on the pack, but my guess is somewhere between 2-4 volts. So a train loco immediately takes off, instead of running slowly. It's not the train engine that was bad, but the poor choice of power pack that was included in the train set.
These are just the sorts of things you learn from experience.
There is a trend today for the train companies (and the magazines) to promote the high end (and expensive) technology of the hobby. Some of this information just isn't practical though for budget operators.
No insult intended, but even with some of the suggestions here, like of adding TMCC components to run tradtionally based trains slowly. From my thinking, why would a budget traditional want to add expensive digitally based power sources to run their trains, when in fact there are ways to do it that are cost effective and simple? Well, that's just my take on it. A decent, good condition used 1033 or KW transformer are far less expensive than adding a lot of digital based power components.
I also think there's a perception with most modelers of wanting the "biggest" power source to run their trains like the Lionel ZW, rather than having the "best most suitable" power source to run their trains. Those "multi-volt" (to use Lionel's phrase) options on the 1033 and KW make them two of the most versatile transformers for conventional operation of the widest variety of conventional types of locos, regardless of motor type.
Thanks for all the endorsements!
Doug, I probably mentioned that I was a member of TMRC (Tech Model Railroad Club): http://tmrc.mit.edu/members.html, which was a hotbed of early computer programming and the origin of hacking (which had a somewhat different meaning in those days). In the TMRC dictionary, you can see my name defined as "a unit of hackery": http://tmrc.mit.edu/dictionary.html But I hated the place (MIT, not TMRC) and transferred to the University of Texas before graduation (BSEE and MSEE). I have worked as an engineer since 1966, currently in GPS.
I HOPE that my question wasn't taken wrong, I surely did not mean to question your knowldge, I have Thanked You many times in the past for your help on the forum. I was just curious of what kind of training it takes to get the kind of knowledge that you have, you have explained things that were so far out of my league and understanding, that I hoped the person who's question you were answering understood better than I did.
I was a little surprised that this hadn't disappeared.
Again I offer another Thank You for all of your help here on the forum.
Kooljock1 Other options include adding a resistor to the motor or adding a ERRCo Cruise Commander. That would give you TMCC and cruise together! Jon
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
challenger3980 I was a little surprised that this hadn't disappeared.
Bob Keller
Ogaugeoverlordchallenger3980 I was a little surprised that this hadn't disappeared. Why would you be surprised that the thread has not disappeared?
Because I was a bit critical of the magazine. Somtimes when one is states less than flowery comments about the sponsor of a forum, a post, or even a thread can disappear. This BTW is not unique to CTT, I have seen it elsewhere as well.
I have a TAS TMCC w'o cruise in a Docksider. After it starts it runs smooth but it is a jump starter. From my observations the hard start has more do to with the mechanical linkage on the drive wheels combined with the smoke unit mechanism. Drive wheel linkage should be offset 180 degrees and mine came out of the box at 90 degrees.
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
I have not done a ERRCo install in a Docksider (yet!), but it seems like a likely candidate. I've done ERRCo installs in both the Lionel Baby Mikado and a Williams GG-1 with spectacular results, and it was SO easy!
HERE you can see the GG-1 cruising along with its GG-1 Sound Commander at work.
Kooljock1 I have not done a ERRCo install in a Docksider (yet!), but it seems like a likely candidate. I've done ERRCo installs in both the Lionel Baby Mikado and a Williams GG-1 with spectacular results, and it was SO easy! HERE you can see the GG-1 cruising along with its GG-1 Sound Commander at work. Jon
Jon....I did two TAS installs and of course thought I could do a TAS install into a Docksider. Now I know why TAS went out of business. Their product pales in comparison to ERR Co's. I put the ERR into two locomotives. The frist one I took some time with making sure I was doing everyting right. After it was done, I went back to the instructions to see if I missed anything because it was too easy. I put it on the track and it ran perfect. The only thing I do that is not in the instructions, is that I use electrical tape wrapped once around the electronics to keep wires and chips in place.
You can see my Williams Wabash FM Trainmaster in videos on my web site noted below. This engine can creep around my 200' long mainline track pulling 10 to 15 cars. The B&O Shark also has a ERR unit, too. I need to purchase another ERR for my Monon BL-2.
BTW, have you ever read the posts about combining ERR and Digital Dynamics Sound cards?
"Drive wheel linkage should be offset 180 degrees and mine came out of the box at 90 degrees."
Are you sure you didn't get this backwards? Two-cylinder prototype steam locomotives have their cranks separated by 90 degrees. This arrangement on a model should also tend to even out the effects of friction in the rods and crossheads.
Lionel did violate the convention in the "General" locomotives, where they aligned the cranks and used the crossheads to drive an air pump inside the boiler. When you think about it, it's very difficult to see both sides of a locomotive at once, prototype or model.
"BTW, have you ever read the posts about combining ERR and Digital Dynamics Sound cards?"
I have, but now ERRCo has real Lionel RailSounds boards that take really small footprints. Check 'em out on their site!
lionelsoni "Drive wheel linkage should be offset 180 degrees and mine came out of the box at 90 degrees." Are you sure you didn't get this backwards? Two-cylinder prototype steam locomotives have their cranks separated by 90 degrees.
Are you sure you didn't get this backwards? Two-cylinder prototype steam locomotives have their cranks separated by 90 degrees.
I checked with Laz offline to see how his great running Dockside was arranged. He told me that his Dockside was set at 180 degrees. My other locomotives are at 90 degrees.
Kooljock1 "BTW, have you ever read the posts about combining ERR and Digital Dynamics Sound cards?" I have, but now ERRCo has real Lionel RailSounds boards that take really small footprints. Check 'em out on their site! Jon
I saw those new Lionel RailSounds boards. How are the sounds? The old ERR sounds sometimes were weak. ERR replaced one of my weak boards at no charge.
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