I have been told that I need a larger transformer to run my F3 (2356) and its passenger cars (5).Currently I have an 80 watt and a 40 watt (that I use for a single motor F3 (1055 Texas Special) I imagine that I will use the old transformers for any lights/ signals etc. that I may eventually have. I would like one transformer that could be used for both F3's. What size would you recommend? What make? I would like to be able to run something like the horns on the F3 and possibly railsounds.
Thanks
Lionel LW will work for you at 125 watts. From there, you will be looking at a Type V(150watts) but it lacks whistle/horn control. The KW at 175 watts is another good choice before jumping into a 250 or 275 watt Z(250) or ZW(250 & 275).
For more modern choices, you have the basic PM-1/PH-1 at 135 watts for use with the CAB-1 remote. MRC makes Pure Power transformers at 135 & 270 watts also with bell & whistle controls. The basic ZW with 360 watts output is ~ $400, and the MTH Z-4000 with two 180 watt channels is a little less.
A MTH Z-1000 at 100 watts output may do the job - if you can borrow one to try it out that would be an option.
Rob
My advice to anyone wanting to expand ---> Bite the bullet...
MTH Z4000.
Yep, the top of the line of transformers. If you stay in trains you will eventually need it.
Bill T.
Lionel ZW is the way to go.
Best bang for the buck, IMHO, is the KW at 190 watts. I bought two recently, one for $20, one for $35. I went through both of them to make sure everything was OK, which took some time, but they are operating very well now.
I just recently purchased an MTH Z-4000 and could not agree more. I am very impressed with it's performance. As said previously...
Cobrabob.
Toy Trains, they are not just an adventure, they are a way of life !
Can you get all 400 watts out of one channel? Or a better question what transformer, brick and or power master can you get the most wattage on one output. I would like to run the whole layout on one output in TMCC mode. Iam using 2 ZW's for conventional operation on my four interconnected loops now.
Jason
B&O = Best & Only
jmkkCan you get all 400 watts out of one channel?
Can you get all 400 watts out of one channel?
No. 180 per channel. It's all UL will allow.
jmkkOr a better question what transformer, brick and or power master can you get the most wattage on one output...
Or a better question what transformer, brick and or power master can you get the most wattage on one output...
The MTH - Z4000 is fan cooled ..... competitor's one does get rather hot/warm under heavy useage ....has no fan ..... super great breaker system for overloads built in ... no need to add them ... digital readouts which is great for keeping an eye on everything going on .... all of which the lionel transformers do not have . Have had mine for years and NEVER any problems .... flawless . Good solid feel to the controllers . Just my opinion .....
A couple of things:
1. comparing modern power to Post War power is Apples to Oranges. The wattage ratings today are RMS, while Post War Power ratings are the peak limit. That means that your Post War 270 watt ZW is really closer to 190 watts RMS. The KW is probably closer to 125 watts RMS.
2. The modern ZW can put 180 watts out of each of the four channels with four 180 watt powerhouses attached. This will give you 760 watts total.
The modern ZW has a cooling fan.
Jon
If you are running in TMCC only a TPC400 with 2 X 180W power houses should do. I've been using this set up with no problems. This way you get the full 360W to the track and aren't limited by channels of 180W each.
Jon, I agree that earlier transformers' power ratings were higher than modern numbers; but that was because they were rated for how much power they consumed rather than what they could put out continuously. That power rating was not meant to be the maximum to which they can be overloaded; there is no hard and fast limit to that, since it depends very much on the duration of the overload.
"RMS" means "root-mean-square", that is, the square-root of the average of the square. It is used to describe AC voltages and currents in terms of the DC voltage or current that would deliver the same power into a resistive load. It has no usefulness that I know as a description of power itself.
Bob Nelson
The new ZW has a cooling fan. It can also run 4 trains were the MTH unit only runs 2 trains.
Doofus The new ZW has a cooling fan. It can also run 4 trains were the MTH unit only runs 2 trains.
The ZW also has PowerMasters built-in for remote control operation(CAB-1) of any conventional / non-command equipment. A Command Base is required for this, though.
That's interesting Bob! I know the RMS methodology goes back to the stereo wattage wars of the 1970's. What might be a good methodology for determining a wattage rating?
RMS goes way back. There are various ways that an alternating waveform might be measured. One that is not too uncommon is in terms of the peak value or the peak-to-peak value. Another one, which is what most inexpensive meters actually measure, is the average of the absolute value. But no one ever sees that result, since the meters are calibrated to show instead the RMS value on the assumption that the waveform is a sinusoid. This is why one can't reliably measure the voltage of a CW-80 or similar "transformer".
Assuming that the waveform is sinusoidal, the RMS value of a signal is the peak value divided by the square-root of 2. So our modern American utilization voltage of 120 actually rises to 170 volts 120 times each second. This way of describing AC voltage was particularly useful when one's electric service might be either AC or, Edison's favorite, DC. An incandescent lamp would put out the same light, draw the same current, and consume the same power on 110 volts RMS AC as it would on DC. Likewise for toasters, irons, heaters, and other resistive appliances.
The RMS concept can be applied to any waveform, not just sinusoids. And the RMS value of a DC voltage is just the DC voltage.
The universal motors traditionally used in toy trains might seem too complicated for easy analysis; but they can actually be modeled as resistors, so their power consumption can be calculated in terms of an applied RMS voltage. First you strip off the winding inductance and resistance and model them as an ideal inductor and resistor in series with the motor itself. Then you observe that the motor's back-emf is proportional to the speed and to the field current (which is also the armature current). Since a resistor is simply an element whose voltage and current are proportional, the motor is effectively a resistor whose resistance depends on its speed. But the power put into that resistor is turned not into heat but into mechanical energy.
I found this in the Wikipedia article for "root mean square":
It is also possible to calculate the RMS power of a signal. By analogy with RMS voltage and RMS current, RMS power is the square root of the mean of the square of the power over some specified time period. This quantity, which would be expressed in units of watts (RMS), has no physical significance. However, the term "RMS power" is sometimes used in the audio industry as a synonym for "mean power" or "average power".
Wikipedia seems to agree with me that RMS power is not a useful concept, but that the term is mis-used for "average power". I suspect that is what you were thinking of.
"The new ZW has a cooling fan. It can also run 4 trains were the MTH unit only runs 2 trains."
I assume you are referring to conventional. Here its not unusual to run 6 engines in command mode with z4000.
model in O. the Western NY and Ontario Railroad
I have the new ZW with four 180 watt power blocks, total of 720 watts of power, and I run 4 tracks all in command mode. Never had any problem with any Lionel trains problems did occur with MTH trains but now run MTH trains with seperate power blocks wired to the DCS system. I also can run my conventional trains with my new ZW by regulation of the track power. So in my opion ZW is the way to go. I like mine. Hope this helps?
laz57
Just to update all of you who replied (Thanks Also). I purchased a used KW and it seems to have taken care of the problem with the train stopping after about 25 minutes of run time. I am currently running both the 2356 and 1055 trains with it and no shutdowns have occurred after about an hour of run time. Thanks To All and Have a Happy New Year!
I stand corrected on the fan in the new zw ... that's what I get for not keeping up on newest advances . Lord I can't even eyeball all the new cars,engines, access. for all the manufacturers .
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