I have a new to me (but well used) F3 2356 ABA unit that will run about 20-30 minutes and then it stops dead and my transformer overload light comes on. I can tell the engine has been used quite a bit since its power pick up roller is heavily grooved. What should I look for to diagnose the problem. I am pulling 4 new passenger cars with it.
Not sure as I am new to this hobby, but im sure it is time to strip it down and clean and relube it all. Inspect the "e" unit for signs of shorting and also the wiring. It certainly can;t hurt to do all this even if it does not solve the problem.
That sounds about right... the thermal circuit breaker finally pops after everything is warmed up thoroughly. A good cleaning & Lube will allow you to run the train at a lower transformer setting, making it possible to run for an indefinite time period. A larger transformer, with a higher continuous output rating, will help too.
Your F-3 has two motors with 4 armature bushings, 4 driven axles, 4 spur & 2 idler gears, 2 worm shafts(and 4 shaft bushings) & 4 worm gears, that all need to be lubricated. A good synthetic grease would be ideal(Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2, eg.) for all gears, & synthetic oil for all 8 axle bushings/bearings and 4 armature bushings/bearings.
The trailing dummies also need to be oiled at all 16 axle bushings/bearings.
Once you service the engine, you will be running like new again.
Rob
Well - I stripped the engine down cleaned the gear drives, put grease back on the drive gears and oiled the wheels (axles) and then ran it for about 20 minutes w/o any cars on it and it ran fine. Put 4 passenger cars on and it made it about 10 minutes before it shut down. Since I had not put the shell on it, I felt the engines and they both were warm but not hot to the touch. Any other Ideas or suggestions of what to check?
Thanks
2356
Did you disassemble the trucks? It's the only way to grease the driveshafts and worms.
What transformer are you using? The bulbs draw a lot of current - it adds up quickly. You will need at least an LW(125 watts) or more for this train. A 1033/1044 or RW will heat up & trip the breaker after several minutes.
Yes, I agree with Rob that you may well have too small a transformer for the load it's carrying. I had a similar problem many years ago after getting back into the hobby and finally found out that my transformer didn't have enough amperage capacity for all that draw (two motors plus lighted passenger cars, etc.).
There is an oil hole for the motors on the top of the motor. Did you put some oil in this hole? This is the only place to lube the motor bearings. Did you lube the idler gear that is on the end of the motor? Did you grease spur gears on the end of the motor that engage the spur gear in the truck? A good test that you have it all done correctly is that you can turn the wheels with your thumb, and they should turn relatively easily. I just lubed my 2353 F-3, and it will now pull the dummy around a loop of O-27 track with the transformer output voltage at 8.5 volts. I cheated a little, though. I also put oil on the commutator which reduces the motor friction. However, your engine should run OK without doing this.
Here are some voltage and current measurements on the F-3 pulling 3 O-27 lighted passenger cars: Slow: 10.5 volts, 3.5 amps. Fast: 12.5 volts, 3.5 amps. The amps don't change much with speed because most of the drag force is friction, and so the motor torque doesn't change with speed.
What is important here is the current. If you have a 1033 transformer with a max output voltage of 16 volts, and a rating of 90 watts, the transformer should supply a maximum of 90/16 or 5.625 amps. If you have a 1034 transformer with a max output of 20 volts and 75 watts, the current is smaller at 3.65 amps (75/20). You cannot multiply the output voltage of the transformer times the current to get the power rating of the transformer. The maximum current that a transformer can supply is determined by dividing the power by the max voltage. This means that at half the max voltage the transformer will only supply half the max power. The circuit breaker is set based on current, not power.
3.75, not 3.65. finger hit the wrong key
Tell us what transformer you are using, I bet the problem is not the locomotive but rather the transformer. The dual motor F3 simply draws too much current for your transformer to handle.
servoguy...If you have a 1033 transformer with a max output voltage of 16 volts, and a rating of 90 watts, the transformer should supply a maximum of 90/16 or 5.625 amps...
For postwar transformers, the watt rating is input power. The 1033 can deliver 65 watts continuously.
Taking into account that the circuit breaker is a thermal type, designed to preserve the transformer & not the train, and the age of the transformer, the breaker will open quite expectantly in the area of 4-4.5 amps when warm.
I am going to guess that my problem is too small of a transformer. Mine is a 80 watt. Tech II is the brand. But to follow up with what needs to be done to make sure the engine is properly lubricated. I have greased where it is supposed to be greased and oiled where it is supposed to be oiled. The one possible exception to this is oiling the armature. Do you split the motor by unscrewing the horizontal screws on the motor to do that? I put a drop of oil in the holes near the lock down screws, but I have not split the motors. The wheels turn with the pressure of my thumb pushing on it. The front motor turns easier than the back one if that makes any difference.
2356The one possible exception to this is oiling the armature...
There is nothing to oil at that end. The oil hole in the housing is for the motor bearings/bushings.
I inject synthetic grease(Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2) into these reservoirs until it starts to just sling off both bushings... it's remarkable how much this quiets down the motors and smooths them out, especially on F-3's & Berkshires..
I don't think an 80 watt transformer is going to work very well. The circuit breaker is a thermal device, and as the transformer warms up, it will trip at a lower and lower current. I have this problem with an old Type V that is rated at 150 watts. It has 4 knobs for 4 trains, but it won't even run two decent size locos very long. If something jumps the track and shorts the output, the breaker warms up and then I have to let it cool down for a few minutes before I can run the trains again. Solution was a pair of KWs.
i also have some F3's (2333) that are having issues. first off the power unit's horn does not work at all. when i hit my horn button on my transformer, i just get a loud electric buzzing from it. i checked all my wiring and connections and can't find anything wrong.
secondly it runs very loud. i've oiled as much as i could and it's still a loud growler. i know there should be some noise, but when i'm running it i have to yell to anyone standing near cuz of the noise. also a lot of e-unit buzzing in neutral. also it runs very slow, and to get it really going seems to take a lot of voltage, i'm using a LW by the way. usually between 14-18 volts (give or take) and finally, there is a lot of "ozone" coming from it while running. a little bit of a burning smell, and some very very faint smoke... but nothing seems to be burning or melting...
i'm a bit at a loss with it right now... so ANY help and guidance is appreciated! i have cleaned the commutors and brushes, oiled, lubricated and tried to do as much general maintenance on it as possible. i'm considering dismantling it and doing a super scrub and cleaning.
Ben
benni311i also have some F3's (2333) that are having issues.
Did you disassemble the trucks? It's the only way to grease the driveshafts and worms. You must lube all gears & bearings/bushings on these mechanical beasts.
I have a set of 2333's on the track right now. I injected synthetic grease(Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2) with a needle & tube(from an inkjet refill kit) into the oil hole reservoirs on the motors, while they were running, until it started to just sling off both bushings... it quieted the motors right down. They really creep along smoothly at low speeds now, too.
Check all of the axle bushings for wear, too. The 2333's are 60 years old, & mine are from the first run, and if the bushings are worn the wheels rub on the truck castings causing a lot of friction.
Another problem that creeps up on old F-3's is that the staking for the field laminations comes loose, and they sometimes actually come into contact with the armature. They must be re-pressed. There are work-arounds if this is not possible.
thanx for ur reply rob, i took the trucks off the frame but didn't go any further than that. i will have to take them off and go further then right? all i did was put some grease on the long driveshaft. i will also have to try your trick of greasing the resevoirs while running. the laminations seem to be fine, nice and tight, i haven't spotted any seperations.
has anyone ever replaced the axle bushings?
benni311i took the trucks off the frame but didn't go any further than that. i will have to take them off and go further then right?
Right... take the two screws off, & the brass cover plate, and you will see the rest of the gearing, as well as a good lot of dried out caked-up grease as well.
Rob --
Do you ever clean the old grease out of the reservoirs? If so, how do you go about it? And, where do you get the Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2?
Thanks, Martin
martindenDo you ever clean the old grease out of the reservoirs?
Always.
martindenIf so, how do you go about it?
Toothpicks.
martindenAnd, where do you get the Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2?
NAPA
Rob -- Thanks, but ... Maybe I'm missing something. I'm talking about the lubricant reservoirs on the motors (not the trucks) -- the ones with the little hole. You said above: I injected synthetic grease(Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2) with a needle & tube (from an inkjet refill kit) into the oil hole reservoirs on the motors, while they were running, until it started to just sling off both bushings... How do you use the toothpicks to clean out those reservoirs?
Thanks again -- Martin
martindenRob -- Thanks, but ... Maybe I'm missing something. I'm talking about the lubricant reservoirs on the motors (not the trucks) -- the ones with the little hole
OK, I missed that.
I don't know anyone besides myself that uses grease in these reservoirs - that's why it has to be the right stuff(Lucas or similar). Everyone else uses oil, which I used to use, in my case Mobil 1.
Any old oil gets pushed out when the grease is injected in. This virtually eliminates all armature vibration from being transmitted to the chassis & drivetrain, the shaft rides on the bushings in a cushion of super-slippery lubricant.
If you inject the grease as the motor is running(I do it on the bench), it quiets right down in your hand!
I would be leary of using a grease in there as getting it out when it does dry up will be impossible. I beleive you it quiets it down as it takes up so clearance that that shafts have between the bushings.
Also to the other poster about taking the trucks apart, you must do this, and you must get rid of all the old grease. Pick most out with a toothpick, then spray 1/2 can of carb cleaner in there util it is spotless. Then use QD Electronic cleaner to rid the carb cleaner film. Then use whatever grease or oil you wish. You can pull the wheels and shafts but it is not necessary, the carb cleaner will dissolve all the old crud.
As for the motors, you need to pull the black plastic cover and clean the copper commutator. All the old brush material will be caked all over it.
BTW "OZONE" smell is from excess brush arcing. You need to find out why they are arcing so badly. You should never see smoke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fordiesel69I would be leary of using a grease in there as getting it out when it does dry up will be impossible...
Hence the Lucas. It won't dry out. I would not do this with any other grease.
They all have (or had) grease in them -- it was put in at the factory.
From the 1953 instruction book, in the section "Where to use Lionel Lubricant." (The next section is "Where to Use Oil"):
"Locomotives where the motor is mounted lengthwise [681,736,2353] do not require as much attention since they are equipped with large lubricant reservoirs which are filled at the Factory." There's a drawing of an F3 motor with an arrow pointing at the little hole, labeled "Lubricant Reservoir."
In the 1949 instruction book, it shows a 671 motor with an arrow pointing at the little hole, labeled "Lubricate." (There's also the statement about not requiring frequent attention.)
I don't know how this idea of putting oil in the reservoir hole got started -- None of the contemporay literature from Lionel says anything about putting oil in there. (Though I'll add that I've squirted oil in, despite that.)
So they all have grease in them, and the question is how to get it out. David Doyle, in a maintenance appendix to his Postwar Standard Catalog, says to use lighter fluid: "The motor's lube reservoir should be flushed with cigarette lighter fluid and refilled with plastic-compatible grease." He includes no details or elaboration. I can easily picture squirting the lighter fluid into the little hole so it dissolves the grease, but then how do you get the resulting gunk out? Can it drip out the little hole?
It does seem to me that if you remove the armature, you'd get good access to the bearings and the reservoir, but I'm a little daunted by that idea. I'm not even sure how to go about it, and I don't have any specialized tools. (In fact, I'm in a condo, so the kitchen table is my workbench.)
I've thought about just squirting some mineral spirits in the hole to see what happens, but I'm not too enthusiastic about the possibility of ending up worse off than I am now.
Suggestions?
Martin
martinden There's a drawing of an F3 motor with an arrow pointing at the little hole, labeled "Lubricant Reservoir."
Those drawings are what led me to inject the Lucas some time ago. I did use oil when the bearings ran dry, and it works, for a while, but it doesn't last. And it's never as quiet as it is with grease.
I have never seen anyone able to get Lionel Lubricant into those reservoirs without removing the armature, and I suspect this is how Lionel, & successors, do it at the factory.
i bought a gallon of mineral spirits to use as a degreaser to clean all my engins, i'm hoping that it would work just as well as carb cleaner? i have the early version 2333 with the crazy white brush tubes. could it be that the brush springs are worn out? the brushes didn't look too bad the commutor was cleaned and i sanded it smooth with 600 grit paper.
The first thing to do with the horn is to find whether the problem is upstream or downstream of the horn relay. With a known good D cell in place, try closing the relay contact with your finger to see whether the horn blows. The locomotive doesn't even need to be on the track for this test.
Bob Nelson
when i press the whistle button on my transformer the contacts touch but no sound from the horn, so would it be safe to say that my horn is shot? should i try anything with the screw and nut on the side of the horn itself? i was using a brand new d cell also.
Close the contact with your finger, to be sure it is completely closed. Listen closely to the horn for any kind of a sound, perhaps a click, as you close the contact.
If you're sure there is no problem in the wiring, you could try turning the screw. But keep careful track of how far you turn it. Go perhaps 1/2 turn one way, then try it. Then back to where you started. Then 1/2 turn the other way, try it, then back. Then do the same with a full turn. Then a turn and a half, and so on. The idea is to explore in each direction while not getting lost and going so far one way that you damage the horn.
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