Did I fry my ZW?

[USNRol]

Hello gang,

Hooking up Christmas trains with an inner and outer loop interconnected.  Each loop is electrically isolated and is run by it's own handle on my late model ZW (With 2 180W power packs).  I've been running a set of AA 2343's between loops while testing with no problems simply by matching the handles, however suddenly my left handle won't put out anything less than 10VAC.  I fear as though I may have leaked voltage back into my DU (Left handle) channel terminals from the AU side at a crossing where the handles weren't matched.  Can anyone confirm this is will damage the ZW?  The other possibility is that I've inadvertently entered some new fangled mode in the DU channel where you vary voltage between 10-18VAC because that's all that handle does now.

Thanks for any help!

Roland

[Anonymous]

Roland,
Not sure but you should try the reset on the ZW to see if it fixes your problem.

I'm sure Bob Nelson will chime in with an explanation as to how to do this properly.

[USNRol]

Haven't tried the "reset procedure" yet...I've been running this transformer for 3-4 years now and have had absolutely no problems.  This is the first time I've tried to run two districts and drive trains between them.  I'll report out results after reset.

Roland

[USNRol]

Tried reset...no joy.  Got the red light to blink 5 times so I'm confident the procedure was executed properly.  The D handle has 10-18VAC on it and the C handle has 0.7-18VAC (so I can use this instead but no direction/horn/whistle control  ) and A and B both go all the way to 0.0-18VAC.  Something tells me I have a problem with the internals.  I've also swapped the power packs to eliminate them as causal.  Very frustrating.

Roland.

[Anonymous]

Roland,
The ZW is actually 4 transformers in one unit. Therefore all the precautions that should be taken when running two transformers should be taken when running the ZW. I think it would be better to use a Single Pole Double Throw switch on each line instead of trying to keep the ZW's handles at the same position (output).

Hope you can get it working correctly again!

[lionelsoni]

Brent is right.  That is the right way to operate with multiple transformers and especially with multiple outputs from the same transformer.  I don't know what's inside the new "transformers", so I won't try to guess what went wrong.  But running as you did can be very dangerous with real transformers, like the original ZW; and your experience may indicate that the new ones are not immune either.

Apart from safety, an advantage of switching blocks as Brent described and as I endlessly advise here is that the number of blocks is not limited by the number of transformer outputs you have.  You could perfectly well have a dozen blocks regulated by just two controls with a proper block system.  This can be very useful, for example, in swapping two trains between two loops, by being able to power parts of both loops with one transformer output while powering the rest with the other.

[EIS2]

Is  the travel on the 'A' and 'D'  handles identical, i.e. do the handle positions match at the full 'OFF' and full 'ON' positions?  If not, the internal gearing may have slipped.  This happens very often on my modern ZW and it does have the metal brackets. It is easy to reset the gears.

When you calibrated the ZW, were all of the handles in the full 'OFF' position?  If not, redo the calibration. 

Are you measuring 10 VAC on the 'D' handle under load?  If not, put a load (any lighted car will do) and remeasure the voltage.

Good Luck...

Earl

[USNRol]

Earl good questions,

I took the cover off yesterday and inspected the gearing to the pots...all seems fine and the travel on the two handles IS identical.  Upon testing the volts out on the D handle under load I found some interesting evidence.  Using 5 polar express PAX cars and a trainsounds tender I found the under load volts was 9.5VAC while no-load was about 10 with the handle at Zero.  But while applying D handle power to the trainsounds tender I would hear a loud pure sinusoidal audio tone from the tender rather than the typical steam engine noises...quickly placing the tender on a normal track I verified perfect operation...so I checked for the presence of DC voltage on the D handle terminals and sure enough there's +7VDC on center rail with respect to outer rails/common.  I cycled bell and whistle functions with no change.  The 7 volts is about 8.5VDC on the D post without load.  Further, I do have .7VAC on the C post with tab at zero and about -.1VDC and posts A and B are absolutely 0.0VAC or DC with handles zeroed.  The small voltages present on the C post aren't bothering me for now.

As far as running the two loops with the A handle powering the outer loop and the C "Tab" (which sucks so bad for a guy who likes driving trains with a ZW style throttle handle) powering the inner, I've had absolutely no problems these last two days.  Swapping trains back and forth LOTS. 

Now I do realize that any delta between the track voltages on the two loops can translate to sneak currents traveling through locos and the lighted PAX cars since I haven't done the mod where one pickup controls the one light etc...but I can't fathom another way to have independent throttle controls on two interconnected loops and safely swap moving trains between loops.

You ought to see it when I have the PE traveling one way on the inner loop and a PW freight travelling the opposite way on the outer and without slowing or stopping any trains they magically swap loops!!  Then I can indepedently sound horns/whistles and stop trains for passenger pickups or freight unloads.  The action is very exciting for the guy manning the 6 involved switch levers (me)

As one could expect I've had a couple trainwrecks and lots of circuit breaker pops from derailments but no further problems with the ZW.  there seems to be a liberal amount of margin in how closely the throttles need to match; to much mismatch and I get erratic horn whistle and flickering PAX car lights on the PE.  The 2343 headed freight doesn't even care once the AA units are through the gap.

I think it's possible some other failure has occurred inside that is not necessarily related to my setup.  I suppose I'll be sending it to lionel after the holidays...that's gonna be a pain.

Thanks for the helpful advice,
Roland

[lionelsoni]

"...I can't fathom another way to have independent throttle controls on two interconnected loops and safely swap moving trains between loops."

Roland, the way you do it is to associate the two controls with the two trains rather than with the two loops.  By switching blocks of track between the controls, you can run each train wherever you want while still keeping it under the same control.

I don't know your layout; but here's an example that might resemble what you're doing:  Suppose that two loops are connected at points 180 degrees apart by crossovers, one at 3 o'clock from inside loop to outside, the other at 9 o'clock outside to inside when the trains are going in the same direction.  Also suppose that you divide each loop into two blocks at their 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock points.  Now, for continuous running without changing loops, you would assign both blocks of the inside loop to one control and both blocks of the outside loops to the other control.  When you want to change loops, as the two trains approach the crossovers at 3 and 9 o'clock, you reassign the unoccupied half of each loop to the other control, so that the left half of the layout is under one control and the right half under the other control.  You also throw the crossover turnouts.  The trains change loops without changing controls.  Then you reassign the other blocks before the trains enter them, and line the crossovers straight.

[USNRol]

OK...I think I see what you mean...but sounds like more switches (electrical type) to throw unless I engineer some sort of automated method of keeping the block under each train powered by the associated throttle.  I think most guys solve this problem with Command Control which is what I would do if I got any more serious than I am now.  Also, two circular loops roughly the same size with crossovers roughly opposite one another is ideal.  My layout is a little different and the reversing loop on the right side is powered by the inner loop district.

Definitely can see how the SPDT switches would eliminate the possibility of two transformer outputs being connected together, but I'm finding with some prudence I can get away with it...unless this is what fried my D handle! 

Roland

[60YOKID]

USNRol

I think it's possible some other failure has occurred inside that is not necessarily related to my setup.  I suppose I'll be sending it to lionel after the holidays...that's gonna be a pain.

 

You might want to send an inquiry to Lionel and describe your problem before you send it in. They helped me out last month, and in just a day or so.  Here's the url

http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/findex.cfm

[EIS2]

If your ZW is still in warranty, you should probably send it back to Lionel for repair.  If it is out of warranty, the ZW has a single circuit board that is relatively easy to replace.  I believe the circuit board sells for just over $100.

Earl

[USNRol]

60YOKID

You might want to send an inquiry to Lionel and describe your problem before you send it in. They helped me out last month, and in just a day or so.  Here's the url

http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/findex.cfm

Thanks for the tip...I'll give that a try. 

And Earl, I'm on my third or fourth year since buying this guy so I'm out of warranty for sure.  I was kinda dissapointed to see the one big CB inside when I cracked it open...no chance of paying a lesser amount for a smaller part.  Maybe I can send the board to China for repairs?!?!  not likely.

I miss the days when our country built stuff and if you couldn't fix it they would, good as new.

Roland