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Help with traditional vs. standard

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  • Member since
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Help with traditional vs. standard
Posted by dagison1507 on Sunday, December 13, 2009 3:21 PM

Hi guy my name is Dan and im relatively new to the hobby. I stubbled accross your forums and have been lurking for quite some time absorbing everything. I know the difference between the two versions of 0 guage. My issue is im looking for some diesel and steam engines with tmcc in pennsy colors. I got a great deal on a pa1 set but its standard and doesnt match my traditional rolling stock at all. Can anyone recommend some command equiped engines that are still the traditoinal size. I suppose if i have too ill buy older engines and upgrade them to tmcc but id rather buy them already installed with all the other goodies. I also do most of my purchaseing on ebay so its harder to discern what scale the engine is before it ships to my house and sellers are usually clueless if its not on the box. I unforntunetly dont have and hobby shops within reasonable distance to pick stuff out for myself. thanks again guys with any help you can give me....

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Posted by brianel027 on Monday, December 14, 2009 3:40 AM

Dan, this is a confusing aspect of the hobby for sure, esopecfially for a newcomer. Believe it or not, a good many of what are sometimes called "traditional" locos are actually almost scale in their proportions - BUT not in their detail level. For example, the K-Line MP-15 diesel is nearly scale in size but compare it to the new Atlas MP-15 and you'll see the differences.

The Lionel GP-9 is also nearly scale in proportion, yet the Williams copy of the same loco is just a little smaller and sits lower on its frame and therefore looks better with the smaller tradtionally sized train cars like the Lionel 6464 box car. Also, some of the Lionel diesels, while shortened in length are still nearly scale in height and still tower above the traditional box car. The Lionel U36B introduced during the MPC years is a good example of this.

Most of the steam locos that come with Lionel starter sets are smaller than scale, although the new Dockside and 0-8-0 are actually scale in proportion, just smaller locos. Many of the early MTH Railking locos are smaller than scale: These are now under the MTH Rugged Rails line.

As far as getting TMCC into smaller locos, I can't help you as I don't use any digitial command. But if you post some locos that grab your interest, I'm sure folks here can let you know as to whether they are scale or not.

There are a good many folks here who have added TMCC to their locos and I know the circuitry is getting smaller and more compact, so their seems to be more potential and greater numbers of locos that you can do this do. I think where you could run into a problem is trying to get the TMCC boards into a smaller loco and then the speaker for sound. Many of the MTH Bataam steamers under the Rugged Rails banner use a tether cord between the loco itself and the tender to accomplish this.

brianel, Agent 027

"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."

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Posted by sir james I on Monday, December 14, 2009 8:44 AM

Besides the GP type diesels there are several Polar Express size steam locos with TMCC. You just need to shop for them. I have a baby Berk w/TMCC and it runs just fine. However narrowing it down to just one RR might make your hunt quite difficult.

"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks 

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Posted by dagison1507 on Monday, December 14, 2009 9:15 AM

 Yeah i figured it would be harder with one road name.. I know there is a nickel plate berk I had my eyes on. Im trying to find road names that actually came through my town, which nickel plate and prr both did. On lionels website under the product finder it will tell you whether they are tradtional or standard but there is so much that isnt cateloged there. I just dont what a gigantic engine pulling dwarfed rolling stock. The prr pa set i bought while beautiful and highly detailed looks rediculous pulling my passenger trains lol. Thanks for all the help guys. An email i got suggested most mikados and a few atlantics would be good. As far as diesel im still a little stumped especially like an fm or alco. I like the gp7 and gp9, did they release these only in traditional or as brianel027 had suggested it might not matter? As long as they are visually appealing im happy. Thanks guys youve been a great help.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, December 14, 2009 10:32 AM

I noticed that you used the word "standard" a couple of times.  I'm not sure, but I think by that you probably mean something like "scale".  You may not know that "standard" is what Lionel called the large 2 1/8-inch-gauge trains that they made before the war; so it can be confusing to use that word descriptively in a toy-train context if that's not what you mean.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by dagison1507 on Monday, December 14, 2009 12:11 PM

I was using the guide from the lionel 2007 catolog volume one (http://www.lionel.com/Products/Catalogs/Catalog.cfm?CatalogUID=2DF4FA81-E425-D7BB-605AF73EF3FFFDB8&PageID=1010). I guess lionel called the prewar engines standard and then the newer ones standard? I read through the catelogs the past couple of years and they clearly seperate standard and tradtional engines so they were not just prewar. If im misunderstanding this please guide me lionelsoni .

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 14, 2009 12:16 PM

lionelsoni

I noticed that you used the word "standard" a couple of times.  I'm not sure, but I think by that you probably mean something like "scale".  You may not know that "standard" is what Lionel called the large 2 1/8-inch-gauge trains that they made before the war; so it can be confusing to use that word descriptively in a toy-train context if that's not what you mean.



Bob,
In the new catalogs, actually for a few years now, Lionel groups items by 'Tradional O Gauge' and 'Standard O Scale'. If you look at the HTML TOC for the 2009 vol 2 catalog you will see:

VISION LINE
CLASSIC LINE Standard O Scale
CLASSIC LINE Traditional Sets
CLASSIC LINE Postwar Reissues
CLASSIC LINE Traditional O Gauge

Maybe the industry could use some standardization? MTH classifies their trains as Railking and Premier... no wonder new comers to the hobby are as confused as a ball of yarn is tangled!
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Posted by DennisB-1 on Monday, December 14, 2009 12:44 PM

Actually,  Lionel used "Standard O" back in the 70s to designate their new scale cars which were and are higher and wider than their traditional line.

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Posted by dagison1507 on Monday, December 14, 2009 12:48 PM

So it seems pretty straight forward with lionel. If i can look up the number on lionels website i can find out there. What about kline and atlas? I dont think ill be getting much into mth as im sticking with tmcc. Already have some of the new tmcc switches preordered. Also is there like a book, i dont suppose a greensburg guide would tell me? thanks

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Posted by JamesShannon on Monday, December 14, 2009 2:25 PM

Hi Dan,

I favor the traditional size and TMCC also. The list is small but growing.  my favorites are the Lionel Torpedo from the late 1990's I see these New In Box all the time for about $450.  A little less money but excellent are the K4's there are two versions the only differences are the updated sounds and the slightly different paint scheme on the Pennsy tender. I alos love the new Mikado Jr.  This loco is smallish but since the prototype was significantly smaller than the K4 they look good together.  The "Semi Scale" GG1 from K Line can be found with TMCC and of course the Lionel GG1 post war classic can be had with TMCC in a couple of variations.  The GG1's look a little big to me for traditional size rolling stock.  I have yet to find a decent transitional diesel that is traditional in size and TMCC.  MTH had some nice F3's but then you are switching digital control systems.  I am just being patient because eventually some more nice high end traditional size locos will be made.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, December 14, 2009 3:53 PM

I think that Lionel tried to disambiguate the term "standard" by combining it with "O scale".  That makes it reasonably clear that they don't mean prewar standard gauge.  But using "standard" by itself in reference to Lionel trains is, I believe, an invitation to confusion.  I just wanted him to be aware of that.

There are other pitfalls in our terminology, like Lionel's original use of "O" alone for what we now generally call "O31" or "O30", and the overloading of "O27" and "O31" to mean either track-circle diameter or rail profile.  Throw in also the use of "PW" to mean "postwar" when it can just as logically mean "prewar".  I spell it out rather than risk misunderstanding.  I also try to reserve "switch" for the electrical device and substitute "turnout" for the trackwork, although I am as likely as anyone to say "switch" for the latter in conversation.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by dagison1507 on Monday, December 14, 2009 4:37 PM

Well i found a couple, i think im gonna save for a t1 duplex lionmaster for my main steamer. Im still a little stumped on diesels, i found a couple i like as long as JamesShannon doesnt steal them from me lol. The first was on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170418171948&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT its a gp9 with electrocouplers which is harder to find. The other is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160385702620&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT a e-33 rectifier. The guy with the gp9 said it was traditional  the e-33 said he didnt know. I also found a http://www.lionel.com/Products/ProductFinder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-38210&expandBranch=36,496&Keywords=&CategoryID=496&RailLineID=&CatalogId= which is a alco set in tradtional but no railsounds or electrocouplers. I imagine railsounds would be hard without an empty dummy and i dont know anything about installing electrocouplers. I havent really even found one with a decent price. Im not a big fan of the gg1's as i dont like the pantographs. Any comments or suggestions appreciated.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 14, 2009 9:17 PM

lionelsoni

I think that Lionel tried to disambiguate the term "standard" by combining it with "O scale".  That makes it reasonably clear that they don't mean prewar standard gauge.  But using "standard" by itself in reference to Lionel trains is, I believe, an invitation to confusion.  I just wanted him to be aware of that.

There are other pitfalls in our terminology, like Lionel's original use of "O" alone for what we now generally call "O31" or "O30", and the overloading of "O27" and "O31" to mean either track-circle diameter or rail profile.  Throw in also the use of "PW" to mean "postwar" when it can just as logically mean "prewar".  I spell it out rather than risk misunderstanding.  I also try to reserve "switch" for the electrical device and substitute "turnout" for the trackwork, although I am as likely as anyone to say "switch" for the latter in conversation.



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Posted by challenger3980 on Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:45 AM

For a Traditional size Pennsy Steam Locomotive with TMCC, you should take a look at Lionel's Mikado jr item# 6-11100. I have several Mikado jr's in Union Pacific, and have given several as gifts, unfortunately the UP version does not have TMCC. These are Very Nicely detailed and very Smooth runners, real stump pullers too. Not being a Pennsy fan myself, I'll leave it to you to decide if they got the colors right.

Doug

May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails

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Posted by JamesShannon on Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:00 AM

The lionel GP9 with TMCC I have is from 1996 and is very close to scale in size and does not "look" great with my traditional size stuff.  The loco works great and can pull every car I have and still fly but it does not look great.  It was our first TMCC loco and when my boys where young they loved the digital sounds.When the transformer is pushed to go that loco just springs to life with sound and lights.  It was a total impulse buy during a visit to the train shop and the owner new what he was doing when he fired-up the GP.  Even my Mother was stoped in her tracks and watched in awe as the loco started a slow advance around the layout.  My Mom, Wife, two sons and I just stood there like mutes in a trance watching that loco do its thing.  My Mom leaned into me and said "you should get that for the boys, I'll pay for it" and that was our start into digital control and sounds. Definately the Mikado Jr in Pennsy livery is an excellent traditional size loco with TMCC. I got mine on Ebay from a local guy that was breaking up a set.

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Posted by dagison1507 on Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:17 AM

Thanks for the info on the gp9, i was really leaning towards it because its hard to get them with the electrocouplers. I do think im going to get the mike, probably the super steam freight set. Has the mike and some rolling stock, cw-80 which i dont need and could just ebay off. Also has some fastrack which i can never seem to have enough or find at a decent price. James what did you think of the new pennsy alcos in the 2009 catelog, i posted a link up top, found them for preorder for around 330$. Im thinking of getting these two and saving for the t1 duplex, maybe buy the atlantic along the way.

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Posted by JamesShannon on Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:37 PM

Love those Alco's! I was hoping for some traditional size F3's but the Alco's look cool.  It is a shame that the prototype "shark nose" locos where such dogs. I like your strategy.

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