I replaced the cord on a friend's 1033 today. Tested it on my layout without any problems. Throttle, direction and whistle controls all worked.
When I hooked my 1033 back up to the layout, I tried the whistle, 'cause I haven't in a long time. No whistle from the train that just whistled with my friend's 1033.
I'm suspecting I'll find a bad solder joint or dirty contacts in the whistle switch when I open it up. If those are not the problem, is it possible that the rectifier is cooked? How does one go about testing the rectifier in a 1033 - check with an ohm meter in both directions? Should be low resistance one way, but high resistance the other way?
Thanks in advance for the advice.
8n,
Start by cleaning the contacts. If that doesn't fix it, the contacts might need to be adjusted.
What model whistle tender & how old?
Rob
It was actually a Williams GP9 that is about a year old. Got the bell, not the whistle, 'cause I'm using the 'U' post on the outside rail.
8ntruck
I just tested the copper oxide disc rectifier that I took out of my RW a while back. I have tested diodes before like you described. That test works on a disc just fine. Make sure you are touching just the white portion on the back of the disc w/ the appropriate lead though. Mine tested fine, but I've heard these can go out and replaced it w/ a regular diode when I had it apart. There's a guy on the bay that sells these for a buck or two that are appropriate for replacement.
Bob
Tucson, AZ (aka the Ol' Pueblo)
Home of the Mt. Graham & Arizona Eastern Boiler Shops
I just rebuilt a couple of KWs, and here is how to test the whistle control. Turn the transformer on, and check for some AC power at the terminals with an AC voltmeter. Then, operate the whistle control, and the AC power level should increase. It increases about 6 volts on a KW, should be about the same on a 1033. Then switch the meter to DC volts, and check the output without the whistle control operated and it should be zero. Operate the whistle control and it should be a few volts (4 volts or so). The whistle control has two positions: the first position supplies the DC voltage to operate the whistle relay, and the second position only supplies the increased AC power.
Servoguy - the lights get brighter, and the train goes faster, so I'm pretty sure that the 2nd position is working.
Opening the transformer up tomorrow is on the to do list. I'll check as you suggest first, though.
Thanks.
In order to check the D.C. output, you really need to have a proper load on the transformer. The first position provides the "pick-up voltage", the second (final) postion provides the "holding voltage". In the first postion, the voltage boost windings and rectifier disk are cut into the circuit. In the second position, a resistor is added in parallel to the rectifier. I don't recall the values off the top of my head. The threshold for the holding dc voltage is under one volt.
8ntruck It was actually a Williams GP9 that is about a year old. Got the bell, not the whistle, 'cause I'm using the 'U' post on the outside rail.
Does this mean you have solved it yourself? If not, try reversing the leads; that is, connect the "U post to the center rail and the "A" post to the outside rail.
Normally, with a 1033*, you can have either whistle/horn or bell, but not both. If you want both, you will need to invest in a Sound Activation Button (Lionel 6-5906) or build one yourself. I could be wrong, but it sounds like a simple "polarity" issue and you shouldn't have to dis-assemble anything to fix it.
*In many other early transformers by Lionel and others, where the controller was "expecting to see" a whistle /horn only (there was no bell circuitry) polarity didn't matter. With many modern locos that have both whistle/horn and bell, you need to upgrade with an additional sound activation button.
Keep in mind, that if your loco or tender has only a whistle/horn, simply adding a sound activation button won't provide a bell sound. The bell circuitry has to actually be present in order to be activated. This may seem obvious to many, but it isn't to everyone.
.
The real problem was that I was not getting either whistle or bell with my transformer, but was getting the bell with my friend's transformer. I know that the modern locomotives use a + DC voltage offset to trigger and a - DC voltage offset to trigger the other. The postwar 1033 transformers only provide the DC voltage offset in one direction. What the train sees depends on how the transformer is connected to the track.
Today when I had a volt meter on the 1033 and the train running, I discovered that the problem is in the contacts. By applying a slight downward pressure to the direction/whistle lever when I moved it into the whistle position, I was able to make the bell sound on the GP9.
So, the problem is mechanical. I'll pull the cover off of the transformer and make sure the contacts are clean and the shaft on the switch is properly tensioned. Parts to rebuild this part of the transformer are available.
Thanks for the advice, all.
The contact assembly is held in place by a little metal piece that looks something like a tophat. It's not uncommon for those pieces to slip off. Perhaps your's is off, or has just slipped slightly. When I have to re-attach them, I often use a little locktite to help hold it in place.You can clean the contacts by wetting a business card (or index card) with some contact cleaner, and rubbing it between the contacts. Use a tool or the tip of your finger to gently hold the contact down against the card. I would be hesitant to actually change the tension on the contacts by bending. That's only needed on rare occasions. All this should be done with the transformer unplugged.
I will suggest something else to do while you have the transformer apart. One of the KWs that I rebuilt had at least one connection between the contact rivet and the strap with a high resistance. I soldered all of the rivets to the straps so that I would never have to debut this kind of problem again. I would recommend this for all of the older transformers as any moisture will tend to corrode these contacts. My soldering approach is to clean the area with a small wire wheel on a Dremmel tool, and then solder using rosin flux solder.
The other thing you can do is replace the copper oxide rectifier with a diode. I put a 5 amp diode in one of the KWs because the copper oxide rectifier was missing. The 5 amp diode is good for 10 amps when used as a rectifier as it is 50% duty cycle. If you put the diode in the wrong way, you will get the bell when you expect the whistle. You should be able to make the horn blow with the U terminal connected to the outside rail if you put the diode in backwards from the copper oxide rectifier.
BTW, for all who are interested, the guidance system for the V-2 missile that Germany made in WWII used copper oxide rectifiers. That is all that was available in those days. The design was very clever.
The copper-oxide diode dates from 1926. It has a lower forward drop than a modern silicon diode, around .4 volts, which is comparable to a modern Schottky diode. You could use a Schottky diode for a replacement; but the slight voltage difference is inconsequential.
When installing a modern diode in place of the copper-oxide diode, do not follow the Lionel schematic diagram. The cathode, not the anode as the diagram shows, should point toward the U terminal.
Bob Nelson
I'll repeat that I am a mechanical engineer who knows just enough about things electrical to get me into trouble.
Thanks for the tips to keep me out of trouble.
Is the Lionel 1032 transformer the same as the 1033 in terms of fixing the whistle diode? I have a 1032 which works well, and another which simply cannot trip the whistle although it does seem to raise the voltage on the track. Will simply putting the VOM on the terminals to see about a DC voltage be a proper test without a load? Thanks. George Conklin
Yes, you can test a copper-oxide whistle rectifier with an ohmmeter; but, since you are not measuring a resistor but rather a very nonlinear device, the results will vary from one model of ohmmeter to another.
In the intermediate position, the whistle control inserts the extra 5-volt winding and the rectifier in series with the output terminal, producing a half-wave-rectified waveform with an amplitude about 7 volts greater than before. In the final position, the voltage is not simply increased sinusoidal AC. Instead, the switch puts a shunting resistor around the rectifier, restoring most but not all of the missing half-cycles of the half-wave waveform. Some DC remains to keep the whistle relay operated.
The Lionel specification is that the relay operate on 1.1 volts DC and hold on .5 volts DC.
Testing the output voltage without a load will not reveal much about the health of the transformer. The rectifier and the shunting resistor have enough conductance that many voltmeters will see the transformer voltage as though those components were perfect conductors.
If you try to test any diode or transistor with a Digital Multi Meter (DMM), you need to use the diode scale. The normal ohm scales don't have a high enough voltage to forward bias the diode. This is done so you can check resistors in a circuit without forward biasing any transistors or diodes. It also prevents damage to very sensitive devices.
Here is an idea if you want to use an old transformer with an engine that has both a bell and a whistle. Put two diodes in the transformer with a single plole, double throw switch. Tie one of each diode together with the diodes pointing in the opposite direction. Solder this common end to one of the leads that used to go to the copper oxide rectifier. Then use some wire to connect the other end of one diode to one pole of the switch, and the other end of the other diode to the other pole of the switch. Then connect the arm of the switch to the other lead that used to go to the copper oxide rectifier. With the switch in one position, the DC bias will be positive, and in the other position, it will be negative. Use wire heavy enough to carry the current that the transformer supplies, and make sure to mount the switch somewhere that doesn't interfere with the stuff inside the transformer case.
Bruce Baker
I have one 1032 tranformer which does seem to work, my original which my parents purchased for me and my brother. It will blows the whistle. I tested it with a 1950s Heathkit VOM. When you blow the whistle, the DC voltage comes through as 1.5 volts on the intermediate position, and zero on the full-on position. Also, the whistle stops blowing at the full-on position. The train does not have a bell, so that is not an issue for me. As for the 1032 which does not activate the whistle, that was purchased last year on eBay so I could give a set of trains to my son-in-law. He has it at his house, so I'll have to deal with that one later. He took it last night.
Question: what was the point of a two-position whistle switch? If I replace be diode, does it really matter which direction the diode is placed if the goal is half-wave rectification? Of course, using 4 diodes you could get a full-wave recitifier.
Thanks for your reply. George Conklin
I am testing with a 1950s-era Heathkit VOM. Since reading that the 1032 tranformer was made only in 1948, that establishes the date my parents got me the Lionel set. I still have the original boxes, but they are kind of worn, to say the least. The whistle works when the whistle switch is half-way over, but stops when the switch is pushed all the way over. I test the DC voltage at 1.5 volts, and zero when the switch is all the way on. As for the transformer where the whistle switch does not work, my son-in-law has that one (I purchased it on eBay last year). I'll have to look into that one now. Since my original transormer blows the whistle, is there any reason to fool with it? George Conklin
FWIW, I have two 1033 transformers, I replaced both of the rectifiers with standard silicon diodes, since the old rectifiers were not functional. For whatever reason, one other modification I had to make was to replace the resistance wire with a slightly higher value to get the horns to work. The wires measure about 1.8 ohms, I used a 5 ohm 10W resistor, works fine.
I'd forgotten about this one.
The problem in my 1033 turned out to be the contacts not contacting on the whistle lever. Got a new contact assembly, but have not installed it yet. One of these days.....
Exactly where would Ilace the diode in the 1033? I am guessing I would byypass the rectifier completely with the diode? I think I answered my question, huh?
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Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
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Yes; but, if the copper-oxide rectifier failed shorted, you need to disconnect at least one of its connections to the circuit. There is no need to remove it unless you want to.
The 1032 is the same internally, it's just a bit lower in power at 75 watts.
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