Standard Gauge Section

[cheapclassics]

To all,

I am creating this topic as a means of having a space for the standard gaugers to hang out. I look at this topic as a catch-all for the wide gauge wonders, both new and old. People can ask questions, relate their favorite stories, or sound off on new developments. While OGR does tolerate us, it really is not their focus group whereas CTT encompasses S, O, and Std. If this is successful, I hope maybe a companion S section is started as well.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[Anonymous]

Just chiming in here in the Standard Gauge section. I'm relatively new to this gauge, but I've been pretty agressive at putting together my collection. At this point I've got all Lionel stock: a 408E set with 418, 419, 431, and 490 cars; a vintage 352E set; and an original 3-car state set (the smaller set they eventually packaged with the underpowered 381E). I've also acquired some accessories like an MTH repro #840 Power Station, bunches of #60 telegraph poles, and various signals & lights. Currently my track runs around my O gauge layout...until I can find a permanent home for it, so, while I've acquired a lot of good track and switches, I haven't been able to do more than make a very large oval around my other layout.

[Anonymous]

I've always been a big fan of standard gauge. Right now my small standard gauge collection consists of a no. 38 electric, 114 boxcar, 117 caboose, plus a later flatcar. I received the 38 with the boxcar and caboose for my 17th birthday in August. I had the flatcar for some time before that. I've been looking for track on ebay and had the train around our Christmas tree last year, but at the moment I don't have the space for any permanent standard gauge layout. I do have the trains displayed along the top of part of my O gauge shelves in my train room, however.

[Dr. John]

Okay, I'll jump in.

I am fascinated by the size, look and sound of standard gauge. If I were to take the plunge. . .

1. What would be the most economical way to start?

2. Other than Ebay, where does one find standard gauge?

3. Since I have limited hobby funds, should I just write off standard gauge and stick with O gauge?

Thanks for any and all input!

[Anonymous]

MTH Crackle Black 400E on far left.

[Anonymous]

Anyone have any comments on MTH's standard tinplate
selection and prices? How about some of the new paint
jobs he has come out with?

[Anonymous]

I've always loved Standard Gauge. In a way it got me into old trains. This is in spite of the fact that I had an American Flyer S set all of my life. My grandparents in their late years became sickly and moved closer to our place. Much of their stuff was stored in our basement as they only got an apartment after their move. I was totally facinated to find a HUGE train set in one of the boxes. I had never seen anything this large in my life, having only been exposed to S trains and HO slot cars. I pulled it out and tried my best to clean it up. It was an 1835E steam loco and tender with blue and silver 300 series passenger cars. The loco and tender were very rough with the castings in an advanced state of decay. One of the coaches had discoloration on one side due to moisture. I got the cars cleaned up and the lights operating. The loco was a different story. I used a ton of Testors model glue.... but she would not stay together well, and I had a real hard time with the wheels I made from soup cans and the old wheel rims. I was to find out that this was a set that was given to a little boy in 1935 for xmas. He died two months later from pneumonia, and grandpa packed the set away and never attempted to run it again. It sat for may years in his damp cold basement. One year grandpa did attempt to look at the set, but dropped the loco breaking the frame. No matter, time would have and did, take care of that anyway. A few years later I was already heavily into HO as far as operating and a layout were concerned. I was always in an old hobby/train shop which was located across the street from my work. One day they started bringing up boxes of old trains and parts from the basement. I asked what they were. They said that their train repair man was coming to take them. So I started asking questions. I found that this repair man did "restorations" on old Lionel trains. After a few weeks, I was invited to go visit this repair man when the store clerk was going up to pick up some rush repairs. Descending into that basement changed my life forever. Old trains were everwhere. On the walls, in boxes on the floor, on cabinets, in cabinets, just everwhere. I was in awe. I never knew such a world existed, and it was very cool. I had my loco and tender in a large boot box and left it for an estimate. I recieved a call the next week with a figure of $400. I asked for some time to get the money together and went to apply for a loan which I got. I dropped the money off and gathered much more information on old toy trains. I was told of a few dealers in a farmers market complex not too far from my home. It was the beginning of a long history of old toy train collecting, and friendships. A month later I was called to pick up my loco. In the mean time I had cleaned and polished the track, restored the transformer and oiled the cars. I hurried up to the repair mans house. There she was in all her glory. I beautiful shiny, black 1835E and tender. He plugged in the transformer and gave her a spin. I was absolutely amazed at how graceful this loco was, and I was HOOKED. Over the next few months I tore up all of my HO and packed it in boxes. I traded it all for a boxed 8E set in Pea Green, in excellent condition. I ran that set for hours on end. My collection grew slowly. Standard was and always has been quite expensive. As the repair man put it, "son, you have champagne taste with a beer pocketbook". Yeah, and I still do, but the pocketbook has improved some since then. I still managed to put together a full set of 500 series freight cars and get a boxed 384E baby state set with the two tone brown 300 series passenger cars, another 8E set in red, and a 10E set in Peacock. I also dabbled in old Pre War O gauge, which was also not cheap. Economics and lifestyle changes eventually forced me into S gauge where I was very happy buying up huge boxes of stuff for a few bucks for years until the market set its sights on American Flyer S. An occasional post war O gauge item was also snapped up, especially if it had anything to do with the Pennsy. Its been 30+ years now, and I've gone through 4 collections. My latest S collection will be auctioned off soon, and I'll be left with a few pieces I held on to as favorites, mostly pre-war O. Yes, I still have that 1835E set, and will most likely pass on with it in my closet. I am currently dabbling again in pre war Lionel O, but I know my Standard soft spot will get me into making a purchase or two of Standard. Again, prices are a big concern. Pre War Lionel O or Standard in excellent condition are demanding high prices, and the trend upward is expected to continue in spite of a shrinking collectors market. I'll not put together a large collection again. This time I will buy them to run them, and because I love them, and they bring me joy. So a few sets here and there will be plenty to whet my appetite. Dr John, I suggest you do as much research as possible into what was made and get a firm grip on values, variations, and the market before diving into Standard or Pre War O. Stick with original, excellent condition items or better and get the best deal you can. Standard is graceful, beautiful, and nostalgic. You can run it at normal speeds and its flying around the track, yet the wheels and valve gear etc. are only moving gracefully, just like a real train. Their bulk invokes good feelings and nostalgic visions. Thats what its all about. Enjoy.....

[Anonymous]

MTH stuff is just another pretty face. If all you want to do is have that look and run them without having to worry about their value, then they are for you. If you want nostalgia, guts, reliability, repairability, and something that will hold its value a little better, stick with vintage equipment. Prices are generally lower that vinatge equipment, but after all they are reproductions.

[Anonymous]

ChsBchRy,

With appologies to LL250E, MTH is definitely not just another 'pretty face'. The MTH Standard Gauge models are beautifully made reproductions of the originals, often at much more affordable prices.

The fit and finish is (I hesitate to say this as it comes close to sacrelidge) far better than original Lionel, Ives or Flyer. The repro Build-A-Loco motors in the "conventional" reproductions of the Lionel locomotives are more powerful than the originals (the newer 381E will easily pull all four state cars around standard 42" diameter track-the original had difficulty). The paint jobs are fantastic. The finish on the 1134 from the National Limited locomotive looks like it is made out of glass as opposed to painted pot metal. Most of the parts are interchangeable with the originals also.

I have run the daylights out of the 400E in the picture above. It is a PS-1 (can motor and older MTH electronics) upgraded to Lionel TMCC with an Equalizer board. It runs at evey major demo (TCA National convention last summer, Cal-Stewart last November, Model Train Expo in Pomona) plus a lot of running at monthly TCA meets.

There is no question about the quality of these items. If you remember the Lionel Classics sets from the early 1990's-these were made for Lionel by MTH (Samhongsa). If the quality was good enough for Lionel, it should be good enough for anybody. The fit and finish on the newer items is, by the way, even better.

The originals are wonderful, so are the reproductions. Whatever I buy, whether original or reproduction, I buy to run. Anything Standard Gauge is good.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the comments. As for "just another pretty face" ...yes and no.
Mike Wolf started in his career by assembling tinplate trains for Jerry
Williams of "Williams Reproductions" fame (now Williams Electric Trains)
while he was in high school and college. Mr. Williams manufactured the
tinplate using original Lionel machinery and punches and dies that he
purchased from Lionel in the end times. Later Mike Wolf went on to run
his own company that today is known as Mike's Train House (MTH).
Mike Wolf did this because Jerry Williams got out of the 'Reproductions'
business and Mike Wolf bought the machinery, dies and punches and
made the tinplate trains by himself.
For awhile Mike Wolf manufactured tinplate Standard and O Gauge for
Lionel under contract, but later on (and now) sold them through his own
company.

So in a roundabout way, the Standard (and O Gauge) Tinplate you see
today is directly descended from he original Lionel Standard Tinplate
of the past. Yes, it is much 'prettier', but it is also a little more than just
another 'face'. Closer to a long lost 'cousin'.

As for the catalog and today's offerings, I agree that some of the things
leave a tad to be desired, but the newer motors and better paint finishes
are a good advancement yet still hold true to the originals' beginings.

And you all are correct. With so may of us with 'beer budgets' and
'champagne desires' MTH offers a nice alternative. I, myself, have all
original Lionel Standard pieces, but I admire what MTH is doing (for the
most part) with the new issues of the old trains. Some of the paint
schemes need a little work, though. The finishes are excellent. The
new 'can' motors run quieter and stronger while requiring less current
and producing less heat. This , too, is good! Yes, I still enjoy running
(and maintaining) the older motors and equipment, but the new motors
are a logical evolution as far as technology goes. I'm not crazy about
'sound effects' coming from the reproductions as I feel that it sort of
causes a loss of 'nostalgia'. The originals provided adequate 'sound
effects' by banging through switches and across diamonds with locos
weighing in at 10lbs and more! And the sheer size and heft of the cars!
The smell of ozone is much better than the smell of artificial smoke!
The incandescent lighting takes you back to times gone by.

[Anonymous]

Hey Webmaster!!!

How about putting a 'sticky" on this thread to keep it on
the front page so people will communicate? You did it with
a couple of other topics.

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

No offense taken. I'd like to reply with clarification though.

QUOTE: MTH Standard Gauge models are beautifully made reproductions of the originals.

QUOTE: The fit and finish is (I hesitate to say this as it comes close to sacrelidge) far better than original Lionel, Ives or Flyer.

QUOTE: The paint jobs are fantastic. The finish on the 1134 from the National Limited locomotive looks like it is made out of glass as opposed to painted pot metal.

QUOTE: There is no question about the quality of these items.

QUOTE: The fit and finish on the newer items is, by the way, even better.

RAK 402, you prove my point exactly. In every one of the quotes above you talk about "Fit, Finish, Quality", and use adjectives such as "Beautiful, Fantastic, and Looks Like Glass". Todays manufacturing methods should produce no less. The charm of old original Standard and O gauge trains is the very fact that they are so old, still survive, and run well. Further charm is that they were essentially hand made, and each one therefore has its own personality, its own uniquness. They have paint runs, trim is sometimes crooked, seems are sometimes uneven, and they are loud and make a lot of racket when they run. They (MTH etc) cannot reproduce that "charm", they cannot reproduce that "Nostalgia", those are attributes that are earned by time, and the period in which the piece was made. I'm not saying that the newer knock offs are not nice items, they are, but there is no comparision other than the outlines are the same. One cannot compare the rumble of an 80 - 90 year old "Pot Metal" or stamped steel locomotive rumbling down the track making a racket as it creaks, clanks, and its open frame Super Motor or Build A Loco motor grinds away, sometimes slowing under the strain. None of the new knock off's can touch that, and never will. You can admire the gorgeous fit and finish, and how smooth and quiet they are when the run, but thats not really what its all about. You can take advantage of the lower prices, but you get what you pay for. It makes no difference where, when or how these reproductions came about. Be they with original Lionel dies and machinery or newly manufactured, wheither they were originaly sanctioned by Lionel or not, its all irrelevant, the 1920's, 1930's, 1940's are gone, their manufacturing methods are gone, and the materials in some cases are gone. Its just not the same. The facts demand that I stand by my original statement.

QUOTE: MTH stuff is just another pretty face. If all you want to do is have that look and run them without having to worry about their value, then they are for you. If you want nostalgia, guts, reliability, repairability, and something that will hold its value a little better, stick with vintage equipment. Prices are generally lower that vinatge equipment, but after all they are reproductions.

One needs to look beyond a books cover to see whats really there.


As far as repairs goes. I've been doing repairs and restorations for 35 years. 1/16 inch is plenty of play without having to worry about gear mesh. One can tweek the gauge if they have worn gears, the general idea was to get the wheels as close to the motor frame as possible thus alieving the "wheels too wide" problem that was being esperienced. Also,if one has quality wheels, there is no need to jump through hoops to mount them trying avoiding contact with the rim. I've mounted hundres of sets in my day and have never heard of a wheel deforming from being pressed on in this manner. If you are lucky enough to have an original Lionel press, their cups use the wheel rim more than any other wheel surface to absorb the force. Also, I noted that several pieces of electrical tape are placed on the jaw faces before pressing on the wheels will preserve the wheels from being marred during the process. Not sure what part of that was not clear.


Above all.... ENJOY!!

[Anonymous]

Just a few cents here. To me, and I've only been into the Standard Gauge stuff for a matter of months, it's apparent that the difference between the original Lionel/Ives/American Flyer stuff and the MTH reproductions is similar to the difference between, for us baseball fans, Wrigley Field and Fenway Park as opposed to Camden Yards and Pac Bell Park: the newer stuff tries to capture the past, but doesn't quite make it in terms of character. The newer stuff is kind of like a Disney-fied version of the originals. Having said that, I think it's just great that anyone (whether Williams or MTH or Lionel or whomever) would even consider it worth their while to produce (er, reproduce) classic tin-plate stuff from the early part of this century. And it truly tickles me that there's still demand! I'm only 40 years old and didn't live thru the original incarnation, but I find the originals fascinating and it's nice that I can go out and buy (hopefully used...and in good condition), say, an MTH version of the #840 Power Station (which is the only non-Lionel piece I've gotten.....so far). I think there's also a lot to be said for keeping something that's original and highly collectible, like the State cars, off the tracks (except for special occasions) and running a set of well-made repros that cost a fraction of the collectible version's value...(tho I throw caution to the wind and run my original State cars all the time anyway!) I haven't bought any of the repro running stock, but I've come close to springing for an MTH or Willams version of the 381E a couple of times and I also look closely at the MTH #200 series cars 'cuz, let's face it, those originals are so expensive! It's just makes me wonder how collectibe the tin-plate repros of today will be in the future...tho that should never get in the way of us buying and running and enjoying them today!

[cheapclassics]

To all,

I am really pleased with the reaction to this post (and a big thanks to ChesBchRy for suggesting the "sticky"). I hope this continues to grow and flourish. As far as new vs old, I straddle the fence as I have some of both. My first set was an original 8E passenger set with a 337 and a 338. Among my other items are a Classics 318E freight set, and I have a 384 MTH set on order. The 318 has no sound system and so I am looking forward to see how the 384 sounds. I will not modify the 8 or the 318, but I have a restored 10 that I might put a QSI system in.
I love to look at the old catalogs for ideas and to get a feel for what it was like in the 20s and 30s, but this latest MTH catalog could light anybody's fire. Even in Lionel's halcyon days, there was never 30+ pages devoted to standard gauge alone. (Yes, there is an O-gauge set in there as well).

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[prewardude]

I thought that I'd bump this thread back up to the top, since I somehow missed it the first time around, and we've picked up some new members since it was active.

Anybody else here into Standard gauge? I've been buying the reproductions that Lionel has come out with over the past couple of years (Hell-Gate bridge, 840 power station, etc.). All that's been missing is a train to go with this stuff! That MTH 384E Pennsy passenger set will take care of that (if it ever gets here, that is). The first Standard gauge item I ever bought was Lionel's re-issued Hell-Gate bridge in 2000 (late colors). That was all it took to get me hooked on this stuff. And God help me, I'm hooked. I am sooo hooked... [:(]

[Anonymous]

count me in. all my standard gauge trains came from my late uncle joe. which include a 402,418,419,490 a boxed 354frieght set with a 10, 511,512 ,514 reefer,517. a gray 318 with 332,339,341 cars a red 8,513,514,,515,517. plus a ton of o gauge prewar.I agree why buy the repo's when the originals can be bought for the most common trains....tony

[3railguy]

MTH reproduction standard gauge is fine. With can motors It is smoother running than the originals . I prefer the old origionals however. The sound of the origional spur gear motors are soothing to me. I do not like digital sounds in a prewar tinplate engine because a prewar engine doesn't look real. Give me the old chugger. The finish on the reproductions is far too shiny for my tastes. I like the aged patina of the orgionals. It gives them character. The electronics in the reproductions are finicky and not what I call user friendly when it comes to repairs. It's really a matter of personal choice.

For someone who wants to get started in standard gauge and isn't familiar with it, an MTH starter set is a good choice I think. Everything is there and you can be up and running in no time without a lot of putzing around.

[Anonymous]

Dr. John:

You asked about the best way to get one's feet wet in Standard Gauge. I would highly recommend an MTH Standard Gauge starter set--excellent quality and excellent value. The starter sets (at around $500) include locomotive, several cars, a circle of track, and a Z1000 transformer--everything you need to get started. Most sets are also equipped with ProtoSounds-2.

I have a fairly large collection of Standard Gauge--most of it MTH and Lionel Classics, along with some vintage pieces and items made by McCoy and other smaller manufacturers. My primary interest is in electric-outline locomotives and trolleys, although I also have a number of the smaller steam locomotives.

My own feeling is that the quality of MTH Standard Gauge is significantly superior to that of the original Lionel in virtually every respect. That's not knocking the "original" stuff, which is the foundation of it all; it's just a personal assertion that in terms of materials, workmanship, operation, finish, and overall quality and performance, the new MTH products are superior to those made in the early years of the previous century.

If you enjoy tracking down and collecting vintage pieces (which are extremely hard to find and very expensive in excellent or better condition), that's certainly well and good. But if you want to have bright, shiny, colorful, smooth-running Standard Gauge trains to play with, you definitely cannot go wrong with the beautiful offerings from MTH.

[FJ and G]

Is Standard Gauge the same gauge as G scale?

I know that G is DC and SG is AC, but just wondering if the rolling stock were interchangeable.

[palallin]

I've recently been bitten by the SG bug, and I've begun getting my feet wet. (I hope to have a pick soon of my little layout under the tree this year.)

I have a #10E, #332, #337, and #338 by Lionel, and an #190 tank car and #195 caboose by IVES. I have a #121 station, #092 switch tower, #101 bridge, #69 Warning Bell, and a couple of lamposts by Lionel, and a nice big bridge (I don't remember the number) from IVES, along with a mixed bag of track with a pair of #210 switches. I use an S transfromer to run the train. I also have three original and a set or repop figures.

I am expanding slowly. To keep costs under control, I'm bugying fairly rough stuff for repairs and repainting (when necessary). The #332 and the #092, for example, had already been repainted, and the #332 is now in much better shape for my first SG repaint. The switchtower is next.

The only repops I have are the figures. I would consider Williams or McCoy reproductions, if they could be had for less than the originals (which is unlikely). I will not run anything with the MTH logo on it. Since I like to tinker, I much prefer my method of keeping costs down.

I may be "inheriting" a #8-engined frieght set that belongs to a cousin of mine as she cleans out her country house in preparation to move into town since her health and her husband's health are failing. We'll see.

I'm always browsing eBay for additons to the small collection, concnetrating on Classic Era Lionel and pre-takeover IVES. My ultimate wish list in founded on a #1134 and a #3243 IVES.

I have manged to put together several SG books, including the excellent primer by Peter Riddle. Anyone new to SG really MUST have that book.

[cheapclassics]

I am glad to see this topic re-surface. I just purchased the MTH 384 Freight set. The engine and tender run fine (the sounds are awesome!), and the cars (caboose and boxcar) run great on new MTH track, but derail on some older track. This is the first time I have had problems with MTH rolling stock. I have three other MTH 500 series that track fine on my layout. Has anybody else had this problem or does any body have some suggestions? I am going to e-mail MTH this evening about it.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[spankybird]

Dave - here is a link on gauge and scales

http://rail.felgall.com/scale.htm

[FJ and G]

thanks, Tom. I think your bird hangs out on your layout because there are so many colorful things for it to inspect

[Anonymous]

FJ&G;

Standard and G are not interchangeable. Standard Gauge track is 2 1/4"
between rail centers and G gauge is 1 7/8" between rail centers. The
"scale" of the rolling stock is in most cases very close and I guess you
could put 'G' trucks under Standard and vice versa, but that would be a
shame as you would have to tear up some nice rolling stock just to be
able to run them on different track. I have both Standard (vintage) and
G gauge trains and while the sizes in G gauge vary somewhat they are
pretty close.

cheapclassics;

Check your track condition and make sure the spaceing between rails
has not been disturbed. Often that older stuff has been played with a
bit rough. The track gauge can become "tight"and maybe you might have
to adjust the space a little. Also check the guage on the wheels on the
trucks. Again, you may just have a clearnace problem and needs a
bit of adjustment to solve your problem.

Hope this all helps.

[FJ and G]

thx, I never realized that Standard Gauge was THAT wide. Then, the Standard Gauge trains I've seen look a bit undersized.

[Anonymous]

I would like to see some article about Standard gauge in CTT.

[Anonymous]

I too, would like to see some basic info about Standard Gauge, along with recommendations and advice.

[3railguy]

Dave, there is small, medium, and large standard gauge. Like comparing 027 to O. The small low budget standard gauge sets like no 8 sets were overwhelmed by the wheels and trucks. Then you had expensive large sets like state sets that shook the living room floor joists.

[Anonymous]

Just to clarify things a bit:

Track gauge is customarily determined by measuring the distance between the top inside edge of the railheads.

Standard Gauge track measures 2-1/8" between the rails.

Large Scale (aka #1 gauge and "G" gauge) track measures 45mm between the railheads, which equals 1.7716535"

So, even though the models themselves can be of similar size (and often are), there is a considerable difference in terms of the track gauges these trains operate on.

Also, Large Scale is really made up of a number of modeled scales, the most common of which are 1:20.3 (correctly modeling U.S. 3' narrow gauge), 1:22.5 (correctly modeling European meter gauge), 1:24, 1:29, and 1:32 (correctly modeling U.S. standard gauge ). There also are a couple of less-popular scales used on the same 45mm (#1 gauge) track. Standard Gauge has no set scale for the models produced, and they range all over the place.

[palallin]

There have been a few SG articles in CTT (as opposed to articles about SG collections) including a good one on the 500-series Lionel Classic Era freight cars. I'm at work and don't have my copies in front of me, but I'll bet our Overlord can probably give us the issue date.