Picked up a dozen 4040 Block Signals as Right-Of-Way Industries was going out of business (over 10 years ago at YORK). The signals work in tandem with a 14 post spot relay (#404026), and an isolated section of 3-rail track.
The above photo shows the CPL signal, with red, green, and black wires. On the package schematic, the black wire from the signal is to go ground. Green wire to post 4, red to post 6. Jumper wire from post 12 to 14, and 12vac red to pos, 13 black neg then to isolated section of track.
Problem I'm having is I was told the original schematic was off, and black wire from signal should go to isolated track. Doing this, light goes from yellow to green when powered up. But when you hook black wire from post 13 to ground, it snaps to red, and won't change. Even when wired according to schematic, as soon as you engage post 13, it snaps to red, and won't change.
Suggestions...
Fife,
I am working on a wiring diagram right now for you. I'll post it in a few minutes.
Here is the diagram. Let me know if you have any questions.
I don't think that's going to work. The NO and NC contacts are always isolated from each other. There must be a common terminal missing from the relay symbol.
Bob Nelson
Bob,
Thanks for catching that.
Connect the common terminal that Bob mentioned to the uninsulated outside rail.
I may try your option, Jim, but right now I'm wired to the power pack accessories terminal. That way when I turn on my MTH Z4000, the signals come to life, first yellow, then green. Your way apparently seems to only work when train is throttled up. Am I wrong?
That is correct. If you want it to be independent of track power, you could use one of the infared controllers such as the Lionel 153IR, MTH ITAD, or the scale MTH ITAD. They would make installing and wiring the siganl much easier than using a relay and insulated track section.
Old school...that's how I roll.
I'm gonna try to use your schematic (BTW, thank you), but I also want to use the hardware I have on hand.
Are you using the Z4000 to power both that track and the signal? If so, you can connect the outside rail of that track to a black post on the Z4000, then instead of connecting the power wire from the relay to the center rail, connect it to one of the red fixed voltage posts on the Z4000. That should give a constant 10V or 14V to the relay depending on what posts you selected.
Yes, the Z4000 is powering the signals. My problem is coming up when I attach the ground wire from post 13 on the spot relay. My problem may lay with the red signal wire, and I haven't had the chance to test your schematic. I'm a little unclear as to the Normally Open/Normally Closed as it applies to my particular relays.
Looks like a little more trial and error...
Normally Open would be for the red signal when the train passes over the insulated section and activates the relay. Normally Closed is for the green signal to be lit when there is nothing passing over the insulated track section. This would be the default state of the relay. Is there any info marked on that relay that you have? If we could get a pinout, this would be much easier.
14 x 13
12 11 10 9
8 7 6 5
4 3 2 1
These are how the numbers run on the spot relay (photo at top).
What is a spot relay?
This thing looks like a 4 pole, double throw relay, with maybe posts 1, 2, 3, and 4 being normally closed, 5,6, 7, and 8, being commons, and 9, 10, 11, and 12, being normally open - based on your description of the original instructions. Probably posts 1, 5, and 9 work together, then posts 2, 6, and 10, then posts 3, 7, and 11, then posts 4,8, and 12 - four switches activated by one relay coil.
I would confirm this by checking for continuity between posts 4 and 8 and no continuity between posts 8 and 12 with no power across posts 13 and 14. With power across posts 13 and 14, there should be continuity between posts 8 and 12, none between 8 and 4.
If the continuity checks go as expected, here is what I'd try:
Power to post 8, and 13. This could be either from the center rail or a seperate power supply or the auxillary terminals on your transformer.
Post 14 to the insulated rail.
Black wire from the signal to ground or an un-insulated outside rail.
Green wire from the signal to post 4 - assuming this leads to the green light in the signal.
Red wire from the signal to post 12 - assuming this leads to the red light in the signal.
General question - if you use a seperate transformer for power to the signal, does it have to be in phase with the track power, espically if you are using the outside rail as ground?
Good luck.
I had the same impression of the relay terminals, but was hesitant to try to describe it because of his repeated use of the word "spot", which is still unexplained. When I Googled "spot relay", I got a lot of hits for "SPDT relay". It obviously isn't that; but he is using only one pole; so maybe "spot" is a misreading of the type of relay that the instructions call for.
We don't know whether this is an AC or DC relay. If we can get past the "spot" mystery, it might be good to establish that.
I have been reluctant to give any prescription for wiring also because the signal seems to have 3 aspects, from the mention of a yellow indication, but only 3 wires to it. So there must be something other than simple lamps inside. If it were just lamps, I would have given my usual plug for a relayless control-rail circuit.
As for the separate transformer, it doesn't need to be in phase. In fact, if it is out of phase some of the return current will cancel the track current and actually reduce the voltage drop along the rails (slightly). DC can also be used with a control rail.
lionelsoni - "Spot Relay" was Right-Of-Way's term on the packaging schematic.
Here is what is printed on the other side of the relay: (in white lettering)
Potter & Brumfield
KHAU-17A11-12
12V 50/60Hz
1/10HP, 3A, 120VAC
3A, 28VDC, RES.
MADE IN MEXICO
9612
Hope this unlocks some mysteries...
I ran the info, and here is what I found. Hope this helps.
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/KHA_DS.pdf
Yup, that appears to be the critter. Now I just need to know how to wire the bugger...
You need to use a rectifier between the power supply and the relay
1. Connect pin 13 to the positive terminal of the rectifier.
2. Connect pin 14 to the insulated rail through the negative terminal of the rectifier. The uninsulated rail must have a common ground with the negative terminal of the power supply.
3. Connect the black wire from the signal to the negative terminal of the power supply.
4. Connect pin 9 to the positive terminal of the power supply.
5. Connect the green wire from the signal to pin 1.
6. Connect the red wire from the signal to pin 5.
probe - what type of rectifier did you have in mind (think small, think Radio Shack)? Can I use just one, or do I need a rectifier wired to each signal? Keep in mind, that when I had these same signals hooked up before, I didn't wire in a rectifier...was I just lucky?
I usually go to Radio Shack to get the full wave bridge rectifiers. I use ones that are rated at 4 amps to be safe. You could connect several relays to one rectifier. If you powered that relay without a rectifier, the relay might be dead now. If it still works, go play the lottery.
I just read the datasheet again, and it says AC voltage can be used to power the coil, so the rectifier isn't absolutely necessary. Sorry about that.
I'm below a novice when it comes to electronics, so no apologies needed. I appreciate your time and your guidance. Let's hope this works.
Here's how I would wire it:
outside rails----transformer common
accessory transformer 12 V or center rail----relay coil 13 (or 14)
relay coil 14 (or 13, respectively)----control rail
accessory transformer 12 V or center rail----relay C terminal 12
relay NO terminal 8----signal red wire
relay NC terminal 4----signal green wire
signal black wire----transformer common or outside rails.
I enlarged the picture of the signal, There is indeed a yellow light. Looks like the signal itself may have some hidden features too.
What I had described was assuming an AC relay, and two lights. After seeing a picture of the other side of the relay, my suggested wiring scheme will not work - I guessed wrong for the common terminal. Sorry.
lionelsoni - Your last suggestion puts us back at square one. That is the schematic that the signals came with, and yet, as soon as you connect 13 to the control rail, the signal stays on red, and won't change. Yes, the rail is insulated on both ends.
We're just missing a step somewhere.
probe - Tried your idea of useing the odd posts (1, 5, 9, 13, 14 to insulated), which netted the same results, just on the other side of the relay.
Back to the drawing board...
I am starting to think that the relay is defective.
If it were just one, I'd agree. However, I have 4 currently on the layout, and they are all responding the same.
Perhaps use a separate power source than the Z4000...?
It's got to be the control rail. With no train present, the control rail is just a piece of metal (supposedly) not connected to anything electrically. Is it perhaps crimped into a metal tie? If so, is the insulator good?
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