K Line S2 Horn Control?

[simon1966]

An update on things.......

After scouring a couple of local train shows, and being somewhat taken aback at the asking prices of some obviously very well used transformers, I am pleased to say that E-bay proved to be the solution.  We are now the proud owners of a CW-80 in almost perfect condition, having barely been used.  Thanks for all the advice and guidance.

[simon1966]

I thought about that, but the design of his bed (where the legs fall) and the layout of his room don't lend themselves well to this idea.  For now, he is quite content to build different layouts, use them for a day or two and then pack it all away.

[rtraincollector]

simon1966

Thanks for the links, most interesting.  I know a little boy that will enjoy browsing around and coming up with some ideas.  For the time being we can't really consider a permanent setup as we simply don't have room.  But as he grows we may well see if we can't build an around the walls type setup in his bedroom.

How about a sheet of plywood cut down to fit under his bed and that way it clould slide out or under anytime and you could take buildings off when you slide it under and put them on a shelf in his room with the trains.

[simon1966]

He got the S2 today and is a very happy young lad.  You are not kidding about the jack rabbit start.  It runs at full speed at about 15% of the throttle setting and actually moves with the throttle set at zero.  Thankfully I had installed a knife switch so he can easily kill the power.  It looks like a new throttle really is in order.  I can't imagine he would mind having 2 loops to control!

[simon1966]

Thanks for the links, most interesting.  I know a little boy that will enjoy browsing around and coming up with some ideas.  For the time being we can't really consider a permanent setup as we simply don't have room.  But as he grows we may well see if we can't build an around the walls type setup in his bedroom.

[brianel027]

Simon, I checked out your photos and can see you are an accomplished modeler... even if it is HO. So you have some understanding of the hobby.

Over the years, the internal specs of Lionel trains have changed with the advancements in technology and in order to inevitably cut costs. 40 years ago, I starter Lionel set would come with an open frame AC motor. Today, they come with DC can motors and circuitry to allow them to run on the tradtional AC transformers.

I recommend the following site a lot because I think it is the most helpful site bar none, for a 3-rail beginner like yourself. There's all sorts of tips, maintenance suggestions, layout ideas for all the various 3-rail track types - some with 3D illustrations which is really neat. You can get your son involved in picking out a layout design should you both get that involved. Trust me, you can spend hours on the Thortrains site: Scroll down for all the various subjects. 

And a good auction site to find relatively low cost Lionel items from Train City to bid on follows the first. Good luck.

http://www.thortrains.net/

http://www.choochooauctions.com/cgi-bin/ua/main.pl

 

[simon1966]

Thanks, now to pop over to the Lionel v Lionel LLC thread to update my history of who, when and where!

It does rather make you feel that the lights of the town will dim when it starts moving, so I would concur from observation that it pulls some current,

[brianel027]

Simon, your loco sounds like it might be the 8020... The silver lever on the top is an indication of a mechanical reverse unit. The loco should run forward and reverse, with the switch on top being a lock out, that will allow the engine to stay operational in one direction only.

This would also mean you probably have an open frame AC motor in the loco, which does use a little more power than you will find the K-Line loco you have coming. The transformer is one that came with later vintage starter sets from the MPC era, or early LTI era. It puts 7-19 volts to the track.

[simon1966]

The current power supply is an 4851 Trainmaster, which is AC as far as I know.  The loco is an Alco with a truck mounted can motor and a small lever protruding through the roof that lets you reverse direction.

[brianel027]

The DC only locos were from low cost introductory starter sets, mostly limited to small 2-4-0 steamers and the Industrial Switcher up to 1990 vintage with the Badlands Express, Freight Flyer and Cannonball Express. The Badlands set had a General type 4-4-0. And there were a couple 4-6-2 steamers: A 1980 New Haven  (8007) and a 1980 Nickel Plate Road (8001) that were DC only. The 1980-1982 James Gang set General  (8805) and a 1980 Chessie 4-4-2 (8008) are on that list.

The Industrial Switcher DC only list includes: US Steel (8305), the LASER (8161), USMC (8377), Chessie System (8670) and Republic Steel (8679).

Sounds to me that a Santa Fe double unit would either be an open framed AC motor type or a more modern vesion with DC can motors and a circuit board.

Simon, if you post the numbers on the locomotives and the transformer, I can offer some more advice.

Still good advice for a beginner. You can tell if it's DC by the first moment you put it on the track and the loco makes a bad noise without going anywhere... turn off the track power immediately. Of course a good clue would be if the set includes a small DC power pack.

Though that's not always an accurate indicator. The Crayola Crayon Industrial Switcher set from as late as 1994 actually came with a small DC power pack (even though the catalog said otherwise), though the loco had the circuit board allowing AC operation also.

[nwo4rf]

Word of caution. Make sure that the set you have is AC. Lionel made alot of sets in the 70's that were DC only. If you put an AC power pack to it will burn it up.

[simon1966]

Hey brianel, Agent 027

Thanks so much for the detailed answer.  One thing I can say about Crispy (Christopher) is that he is very careful with his trains.  I am quite happy to let him run my HO scale layout without any concerns on my part.  With the birthday just next week, I think we will stick with our current transformer for the time being and then take a look see with what we can do in the run up to Christmas.  I have been in the small scales for some time, and aside from name recognition, don't know very much about these larger models and manufacturers.  I most certainly appreciate your detailed response and advice.

[brianel027]

Simon, I run the older truck mounted DC can motored locos exclusively, so you can take this advise as from an expert on these locos. Trust me, everything I say here is from first hand experience. I don't use command control and never will. These are the kinds of locos of my chosing as they are reliable and affordable.

Now, I have yet to own or run S-2 as made by Lionel. I have seen photos of them though. Dealers tell me they're selling real good and save for the UP version you have purchased, most are already long gone.

But I have loads of the original MDK K-Line versions as well as the others like the Alco FA, MP-15 and the Budd Cars. So I don't know how much Lionel has changed the specs** (see below): Outside of adding the horn, I would suspect not much. They may have removed some of the added weight K-Line placed in the S-2 to have room for the horn... that I don't know for sure though.

So be advised that the postwar Lionel transformers will run any of these locos like jack rabbits... they start fast and can go so fast under an open throttle that they'll fly off the track easily. Nearly all Lionel postwar transformers start off with a mininal 6 volts to the track. For years, folks have complained these kind of locos run TOO fast: The train magazines have even pointed this out in reviews. BUT it's not the train loco - it's the transformer!

If you want an inexpensive decent quality transformer for this kind of loco that a child will be operating, there is NO better transformer than the 90 watt Lionel 1033. The 1033 has two voltage setting for the track. The A-U setting is good for older postwar locos which puts 5-16 volts to the track. The B-U setting puts 0-11 volts to the track and is perfect for a child running this kind of loco... the loco WILL NOT fly off the track. The 1033 also has a built in horn control, though that is most likely the one thing that can need service on a used one. Bear in mind, the 1033 hasn't been made in decades (Lionel MPC made a version during the 1970's), so you always want to make sure they're in good shape unless you know about working on them yourself.

The modern transformers like the above mentioned Lionel CW-80 are nice and do start with a low starting voltage, so that trains can also be run slowly. But they also go up to 18 volts at full throttle, and that much juice to the track will likely cause the S-2 to run off the track on curves unless pulling a heavy train. Many of the newer locos that have electronic control and/or sounds, and also the locos with open frame AC motors take more current to run than locos with truck mounted DC motors like the K-Line S-2.

If you are using another type of transformer, you might want to consider rigging up some kind of stop device that prevents the transfromer throttle from going up all the way. I rigged a very basic K-Line transfromer for a kid with a short length large head nylon screw so that the train could not be run full throttle, risking running the loco off the layout to the floor.

Some kids are just very careful and this may not be a concern for you. But just thought you should know. The K-Line S-2's are super locos for a small layouts or a kid's layout... good pullers, outstandingly reliable (I'd give it an 11 out of 10 in that respect), with a simple but respectable amount of detail. Lionel has done a good job with the visuals of these locos... the UP K-Line by Lionel version looks much better than any MDK K-Line version ever did.

**Some of the original MDK K-Line locos, especially the double unit A-A Alco FA's (which had 4 motors overall and we're connected via a wire from one A unit to the other) came with a much larger circuit board reverse unit. These locos, even when run as a single A unit, run much slower than the other before mentioned K-Line locos and will run better with a Lionel transfromer like a ZW.

PS: Congrats on the loco for your boy!

Be sure you check the lube on the gears when you first open it. Chances are you may need to add some plastic safe lubricant. Some say the plastic geared locos are no good. NONSENSE. Some of my original K-Line locos are close to 20 years old with lots of running and they're fine! Just gotta to be sure to keep the gears periodically lubed.

Just for a little more side info: Ready Made Toys has been making a version of the former K-Line Budd car, which is also very nice and affordable to boot. Another great choice for a kid's layout and runs better through switches than does the BEEP.

[ADCX Rob]

 

lionroar88

Forgot to mention - there are also horn actuators, but I have not seen these in years.

The Lionel 5606 Sound Activation Button should work just fine for this application.  Lionel has them in the parts department, and many dealers probably do too.  Chuck Sartor, I believe, has stated he has them in stock.

Rob

[simon1966]

The power pack we have is a 70's era basic one with a throttle and forward/reverse activated by pressing one of the terminals.  Sounds like a new power pack might be in order.

 Thanks

[Anonymous]

Forgot to mention - there are also horn actuators, but I have not seen these in years.

[Anonymous]

Not knowing what you are referring to when you say 'basic throttle comes with the set' I can't be very specific.

HOWEVER, the Horn should be activated by a 'Horn' or 'Whistle' button. Tranformers typically have a REVERSE button and a HORN button. If your's only has a throttle and no REVERSE or HORN button then I would recommend purchasing either a Lionel CW-80 or an MTH Z-1000. Both of these are inexpensive transformers that can power up to one track. If you are looking to expand into additional tracks then a Lionel ZW, MTH Z-4000, or the Model Power unit will be required. If you are not looking to go Command Control, then a Lionel Postwar KW or ZW would be excellent multi-track transformers and can be purchased for a lot less than the Modern ZW or the MTH Z-4000.

[simon1966]

A quick summary

$25 rummage sale purchase back in the summer nets a good amount of O-27 track, some remote control switches, an Alco Santa Fe A and B units and several freight cars.  10 year old son, ecstatic and now firmly hooked on O scale.  Basic throttle comes with the set.

Next week it is his birthday, and unbeknownst to him, he is getting a K Line UP S2 and caboose combo.  I note that the S2 has a horn.  But how does one control the horn?

What are my options?  Do I need to get a new power-pack/throttle or are there other ways to activate the horn?

 Thanks for the input.