The conductors for the switch-motor and lamp supplies should be heavy enough to handle whatever current the transformer can put out before tripping its circuit breaker. For the other wires, add up the lamp currents on the circuit. If you post the lamp numbers, I can tell you their ratings.
22 AWG 3.5 amperes
20 AWG 5 amperes (1033 transformer)
18 AWG 7 amperes
16 AWG 10 amperes (KW transformer)
14 AWG 15 amperes (Z or ZW transformer)
Bob Nelson
Thanks again guys. It's almost crystal clear. The proof will be in the results of my actual wiring.
Bob, you controller discussion explains why most of my existing installed switches have no wire on the center terminal; there is instead a collection of controller commons routed to the transformer common, which is much closer to the controllers than most of the switches and therefore requires much less wire.
By the way, most of my 8 existing switches are wired with four conductor solid copper telephone wire, with one conductor to each throw of the controller, one for the switch lamp, and one for the constant voltage plug (actually several adjacent switches have their voltage plug wires chained. Distance to controllers and transformer is up to 12 foot. It seems to work. is this wire gage (18? 22?) OK for the several purposes it's serving?
I've saved most of this thread to a word doc, because I don't know how else I could find it in the future. Someone mentioned acchives, but I don't know how to access or search them successfully. My prior attempts have been ineffective in turning up what I was looking for.
runtime
The controller lamps are powered through the switch-machine coils. The supply voltage, whether gotten from the center rail or from a separate supply through the aforementioned plug, is connected to one end of each coil. The controller connects the other end of one or the other coil to common to complete the circuit. (That common connection can be gotten from the turnout itself, through one of the wires in the 3-wire cable, or from the common terminal of the transformer, the terminal that connects to the outside rails of the track.)
There is also an electrical switch inside the turnout that disconnects each coil when it has moved the points. Of course, at the same time it reconnects the other coil to get it ready for throwing the points back the other way. So, at any one time, one of the coils is connected and the other disconnected. The lamps in the controller are connected to the two coil wires from the turnout and both are returned to common. So there is a controller lamp in series with each of the coils, except that one of the coils is always disconnected. That is why only one lamp lights, and why it corresponds to the position of the points. The lamp draws far too little current to operate the turnout. The controller can then be thought of as making a short circuit around the lamp that is lit, applying the full voltage to the coil.
I made the earlier chart from the erroneous assumption that the real transformer inside the CW80 had an 18-volt secondary winding. It turned out, from another member's posting of the actual waveform, that the winding is 20 volts and that the design of the phase-control circuit limits the output to 18 volts. This provides a little room to advance the turn-on of one half-cycle while retarding the other, to introduce the small DC offset that makes the whistle and bell signals.
The chart is theoretical, not from actual measurements. Any particular installation will deviate somewhat from it if for no other reason than variation in the power-line voltage. But it should be easily close enough for any of our purposes, and far better than no correction at all.
Bob's comments about the measurement of the various CW-80 output voltage bears consideration. What he didn't mention was that he and another member collaborated on a chart* that presumes to compare the readings that one sees when using ordinary household voltmeters with the actual RMS voltages. Personally, I'd like to see this chart updated with better quality but still ordinary meters.
The original Lionel type 022 switches had not transistors or other solid-state components; but over the years many have been modified, so who knows what's in a given switch without checking. The original switches got their power from their connections to the center rail of the track; but provision was made to exchange this track-power for an auxilliary source via constant-voltage plugs. The design of these plugs (shallow cones, actually) results in a breaking of the connection from the track just an instant prior to connecting the switch lamps and motors to the auxilliary power.** Frequently a "common" ground set-up is used, and this can get tricky, especially with pre-revision CW-80's, or even a 1033 if one is not careful. When the original equipment has been modified, even greater care must be taken.
By the way, some reasons that the CW-80's "come into play" so frequently is that there are soooooo many of them out there; the early ones were faulty as were the Owner's Manuals; so much erroneous material has been posted about them; and so many folks don't seem to know which version they have. It can make a huge difference, especially where Aux power for switches and certain other accessories are concerned. One has to admit that it is difficult to set up a "common ground" wiring scheme when one is wrong about which of the taps on the transformer are actually common.
* There are actually two such charts in the archives of this forum. Use the more recent one.
** The constant-voltage plug assembly is in fact a "break-before-make" switch.
Ahhh! Thank you Bob. You have taken me one step choser to unraveling the mysteries shrouded in hihstory. Now I think I understand the 5 V tap wiring's purpose I'll probably find it's to power the switch lamps). Still not sure what is powering the controller lamps.
A frequent complaint about 022 turnouts is that the heat from the lamps warps or melts the lanterns when the voltage is set high enough for good operation. One cure for this is to use higher-voltage lamps or smaller lamps. Another fix is to put a voltage dropping element in series with each lamp, such as a rectifier diode like a 1N4001. I guess that your father's solution was to power the lamps separately so that he could select suitable voltages and separate voltages for lamps and switch motors.
Yes, the A terminal of the 1033 is an appropriate common connection.
There may be more to the Lionel confusion than you have discovered. In addition to inconsistent labeling of terminals, they created a dangerous situation in their multiple-output transformers by using only one circuit breaker, in series with the common terminal. There were a number of oddities in locomotives, cars, and accessories also.
I'm the original poster.
First of all I'd like to than everyone for their interest and contributions to this thread!
To refresh everyones memory, I'm in the process of adding 5 postwar 022 switches at a distance of about 20 feet from my power sources. The layout is entirely conventional, postwar + some Lionel MPC era engines and cars (is '97 MPC ?).
The thought I had was: should I locate some small (1073) transformer nearer to the switches, to power them, or run whatever amount of wire I must (still unclear) to the 1033 that powers my other 8 switches.
Let me add that I'm still in the process of mapping out how my dad (rest his soul) , rigged up the wiring on my 'Christmas' layout, circa '98, which is still standing. Track power comes from a seperate, non-toy train intended, multi-tap transformer where I am using the 20 V tap, run through what looks to me like a big reostat. The both transformers seem to have their commons connected (apparently the 'A' terminal on the 1033). Also, I've noticed that most of my switches have no wire connected to the center terminal, and everything works just fine. In addition, but probably irrelevent, my dad converted each switch to use a seperate wire to power the bulb on the switch (still tracing where those were conected). Everything works fine, so it must be ok, there is just such a mass of wires running through various connection blocks, and I can't see under the layout since it's 1/2 inch off the floor!
As an additional comment, Lionel's electrical schemes for their transformers and switches are insane! Why would they make them so confusing and inconsistant! By design or incompetence? And their (early) postwar engines and cars are so painstakingly detailed and well thought out (it seems to me).
.
The original poster didn't say what kind of transformer he plans to use with his turnouts. But now that CW80s are in play, let me remind everyone that a conventional meter will be as much as 4 volts off measuring the output of a CW80. You need a true-RMS meter for that.
On the other hand, electronic stuff often is sensitive to neither the voltage that a conventional meter nor a true-RMS meter measures, but rather the peak voltage. The peak voltage out of a CW80 is generally much higher than either of those other measures of voltage and doesn't vary over much of the range of the control handle. So it's better that any electronics powered by one of them be fairly robust.
(I'm sure Rob meant "sleeve", not "ring".)
If these are the original Lionel post war switches you can put up to 18 volts to them with a post war transformer, you can use a bus wire or just run a wire from each switch and splice under the layout up to the switch for the fixed voltage plug.
On newer Lionel O gauge switches(6-23011, instructions say 12 to 14 volts) that look like the 022 switches be careful about the voltage(go with the voltage Lionel says and use about one volt less, measure with a digital multimeter) as it can burn out some of the electronmics in the switches at voltages over 14 volts.
Lee F.
lionel2I have all my controllers at my control panel, so I have to run like 18 feet of wire for each 022 switch. And the controllers as well, the 3 conductors are a pain. ..
You only need two wires.
Tie all the center conductors together at the control panel and connect them to your common ground, or let them hang loose and run a common ground buss wire to contact the common/center connection point in each controller.
Or, leave them all connected as-is, and still make the common ground buss wire connection in each controller to improve your ground/common and maybe eliminate a Lockon here & there.
To go one step further, you could replace the Lionel fixed-voltage plugs with coaxial power plugs, and use the 022 as a Lockon by providing your track power to the ring, switch power to the tip, and ground as outlined above. This would possibly eliminate several Lockons, with more secure electrical connections.
Rob
lionelsoni One thing that a simple transformer has going for it is that it isn't harmed at all by a momentary overload. The thermal circuit breaker usually supplied with it complements this feature by not tripping until there has been a chance for the transformer and wiring to heat up over some time. Then it protects the transformer and wiring by opening the circuit before things get too hot. So a traditional setup can easily handle the fractional-second overload of a turnout throwing occasionally, even if it is already fully loaded by the turnout lamps or other layout duties. "Transformers" with electronic protection, on the other hand, tend to respond quickly to overloads and are therefore somewhat less suitable for this kind of application. Their quick response may be entirely appropriate for their design, which involves semiconductors that may be destroyed by a very brief fault current, but it reduces their usefulness at least in this one application.
One thing that a simple transformer has going for it is that it isn't harmed at all by a momentary overload. The thermal circuit breaker usually supplied with it complements this feature by not tripping until there has been a chance for the transformer and wiring to heat up over some time. Then it protects the transformer and wiring by opening the circuit before things get too hot. So a traditional setup can easily handle the fractional-second overload of a turnout throwing occasionally, even if it is already fully loaded by the turnout lamps or other layout duties.
"Transformers" with electronic protection, on the other hand, tend to respond quickly to overloads and are therefore somewhat less suitable for this kind of application. Their quick response may be entirely appropriate for their design, which involves semiconductors that may be destroyed by a very brief fault current, but it reduces their usefulness at least in this one application.
Fair enough, Bob.
In their Owner's Manuals for the CW-80's Lionel says they can be overloaded briefly -- possibly long enough to flip an 022 switch -- before the "foldback circuit" reduces the power too much. On the other hand, ADCX Rob has written that the CW-80's "hit the wall" at precisely 5 amps output as it's specs indicate.
I thought that perhaps you were discussing the confusing polarity issue in the early CW-80's in which the common posts and the "hot" ones were reversed from current* practice -- particularly since you are well acquainted with the screwball way Lionel treated commons in the postwar days, where the U posts were common in the multi-throttle transformers, but the A or B posts were common in the single throttle ones. The early CW-80's followed the postwar scheme. You have posted about this previously.
The early CW-80's followed the postwar scheme (A and B) were common; whereas the revised ones have the U posts as common and work very well, despite not qualifying as "transformers" in your technical argot.
This is germane to the issue of connecting the constant voltage plugs on the switches* to an "independent" power source rather than using track power. All CW-80's have a "variable programmable" accessory tap, and it is tempting to power one's switches from that set of posts. If you don't keep track of which taps are actually common, you will almost certainly screw up the "common ground" scheme and create a direct short-circuit -- rather like connecting the A terminal on a postwar ZW directly to its own B, C, or D posts. The revised CW-80 models, from about mid-2006 to the present, have corrected this. That is, the black posts are now common, and the two red posts represent different power taps. Now one can run the throttle (from red post A) to the center rail of the track, and the accessory power (from red post B) to the constant voltage plug, and all will be well -- as long as the total draw on the "transformer" does not exceed 5 amps.
I have posted about this confusion -- which is a matter of electro-mechanical fact and not just a "labeling problem" -- many times on at least three different forums, but no one seems to care until they try it and can't make it work. There is a workaround, but it is not without some minor "costs" and evidently few operators want to fool with it. One mo' time: any revised CW-80 will work just fine. (That's principally what is "revised" about it.)
*Not only switches, of course, but also on several pieces of specialized track and certain accessories where one has the option of using either track or auxilliary power.
Well, I have a seperate transformer to power my 022 switches. I have 22 of them on my layout. 12 of them powered by my ZW and 10 more by my Z transformer. Work just great, just have to play with the voltage til you get what you want as far as performance of switches and snap action. I have all my controllers at my control panel, so I have to run like 18 feet of wire for each 022 switch. And the controllers as well, the 3 conductors are a pain. But, it all works just fine now. I have to wire up 5 more 022 switches as well. But, I kept my transformers where they are, on the control panel, just have to run alot of wire. Thanks.
Bob, I really don't understand what you mean by " does not apply to a .... CW-80. Would you elaborate?
Except when a turnout actually throws, the only current it draws is for the lamp. A transformer and wiring that can supply all your lamps is big enough and can be located almost anywhere. If the momentary high current at throwing overloads the transformer, it is harmless. This exemption does not apply to a not-quite-a-transformer like a CW80. The voltage you need depends on how freely your individual turnouts move, but your guess is in the right ballpark.
Maybe I'll have better luck with this post.
I'm adding five 022 switches at a distance of about 20 feet from my transformers. Would it make sense to locate an additional transformer dedicated to these switches close by? And what is the right voltage - I'm assuming 14-16?
By the way, one pair of the switches I purchased (at York) came with the Lionel instruction sheet - what a bunch of gobble de gook! I can't believe the crappy incomprehensible instructions Lionel put out. Was it incompetence, or wa it intentional obfuscation?
Intolerantly, but appreciatively yours,
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