I am a fan of Jersey Central, as you can see by my signature line. But only the orange-blue and Brunswick green eras. I think the red-white stuff is just too gaudy. Like the train from hades Anyway, I have questions.....I have seen pictures of the Brunswick green cabooses and boxcars, and the red-white cabooses and boxcars. But no pictures of orange-blue cabooses or boxcars. Is the orange-blue color scheme limited to locomotives? Did the orange-blue locomotives get used for passenger or freight or both? And where is John Fullerton when I need him??? Dep
Virginian Railroad
Dep.....check out the JC FM Trainmasters on this page. They are all green and white. They are pulling passenger trains. I have a blue/orange Trainmaster and have never seen a picture of an actual one. That is a good question.
http://rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=CNJ
Chuck
Chuck: Same for me...never saw a pic of a tangerine and blue FM. I have a funny feeling it may be a "fantasy scheme" that the old Lionel foisted off on us. I have a few FMs in that color scheme and really like it. One is the re-release Lionel from the Celebration Series and is really loaded with features.
I did find another website that goes into great detail about when and what colors JC used. Check this out:http://www.homauchchunk.co.uk/liveries.htmLOL...they call that yucky red-white paint scheme the "Red Baron". Good grief! MTH makes a nice F3 Jersey Central in the blue-tangerine colors and that seems to be accurate. I wish someone would come out with the double-end Baldwin DRX 6-4-2000. It's so ugly it's actually kinda neat.
John Fullerton is also a big JC fan. He was gonna buy the set of books called "Jersey Central Lines In Color, Volumes 1, 2 & 3", but I don't know if he ever did. Those books would probably be the best bet at spotting a blue-tangerine FM. Dep
Dep, I'm pretty sure the blue/orange was only for motive power. Generally, all the rolling stock was green, black or tuscan. The more "modern" engines were B&O Blue from the fact that the CNJ was running out of money (& time), and painted over the B&O heralds and added the CNJ lettering or heralds.
Try going to
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/cnj.html
That may help you out some.
Rich
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
Rich: That link you gave doesn't seem to work. Since you are also a JC fan. have you ever seen any pics of REAL FM Trainmasters in the blue-tangerine colors?Dep
I fixed the link so it works now....
nope, never saw any trainmasters real or pictures.
Might be something I'll investigate soon...
Dep,
I have not seen the orange and blue CNJ scheme in a photo., or in person either, but Lionel's version is really attractive. Who knows, for sure, if it's one of Lionel's promotional gimmicks, or a prototypical color scheme of the CNJ.
In the early '70's. my wife bought me Lionel's GP 7/9 Santa Fe power and non-powered diesels, she, nor I knew back then that the black and yellow scheme was not prototypical, but the colors, then and now are certainly attractive.
Now, when I see a Lionel item, I want to make sure that it's modeled prototypically in every way and if I can afford it, then I would like to add it to my roster of goodies.
Ralph
Ralph: Tangerine and blue is a real paint scheme. We just don't know for sure if the JC FM Lionel and others have made is prototypical. I hope it is, but I have my doubts. I am with you, I WANT to have just REAL paint schemes for my trains. That's why, even though I am a big fan of the FM Trainsmaster loco, I don't buy the WIlliams NYC FM Trainmaster. NYC never used that loco. We talked in another thread about new colors Lionel has released for Standard O trains that look real nice but don't exist. I wish they didn't do that for Standard O. Most Standard O guys like prototypical stuff and not fantasy stuff like the Traditional fans do. There are individual exceptions, though. I actually bought the 3 RailKing Bonomo's Turkish Taffy boxcars from MTH just because they have my last name
I did not know that those are actual colors, even so I have never seen a prototypical CNJ loco. in that scheme, regardless of the type of engine and the job I did would take us where normal people fear to go, like your former job did. That's why I know a little something about railroads and the like.
And about Bonomo, his Turkish Taffy company was based in Coney Island, Bk., L.I., N.Y. in the 60 Precinct confines, years ago.
Ralph: Here's a pic from Rich's link. This F3 is duplicated by MTH in their Premiere line:
Dep, I too like the Jersey Central although I am more forgiving about the later "Coast Guard" scheme. It's my interest in the CNJ that made me wonder some years ago about the same question. In my research, I could only find 3 types of locos that were painted in the Tangerine/Blue scheme and those were the F3, and two types of Baldwin "babyface" DR-series.
I have some of the CNJ color books and have only seen Trainmasters photographed in either the solid olive scheme or the deep green with the long yellow stripes scheme.
I'd be willing to guess that the adaptation of the tangerine/blue scheme on the Trainmaster went along the same thinking as the scheme on the 1958-9 Lionel New Haven F3... they were realistically based paint schemes, placed on different loco types for marketing/sales merit and not prototypical merit.
Of course, 3-rail buyers back then were not quite as demanding as today. And I guess those that were back then, switched over to HO.
Even today, one of the more persistant criticisms I read of MTH is their incorrect placement of paint schemes on wrong locos and rolling stock types. Yet, they keep doing it so obviously, despite the complaints, the stuff sells. I'll bet Lionel does good with the New Haven F3 reissues too.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Hi Mike, I'm still here, just not as frequently as I used to be. NO, the CNJ never had any Trainmasters painted in tangerine and blue. Only green and yellow and all green. The tangerine and blue color was being phased out when the Trainmasters arrived on the CNJ. Here is a picture that I took in Jim Thorpe, PA in 2008 of a former CNJ diesel set.
I do not think you will ever see the double enders modeled as I believe the CNJ was the only road to have them.
If you want a lot of info on Trainmasters, get a copy of David R. Sweetland's "Train Master" it lists every one ever built and where it ended up. Lots of pictures from every road in color and some in B&W.
Yes I do have the three CNJ in color books and one CNJ Steam in color as well.
Brian: I had a sinking feeling that was the case. Oh well, it IS a nice paint scheme. I'm not real crazy about the green-gold colors. Is that McGinnis New Haven F3 black-white-orange color not protypicall? I am pretty sure the orange-white-silver one isn't. And yes, MTH makes versions of both. It's been my experience so far that the fantasy schemes in MTH (other than the FM Trainmaster tangerine-blue) have been in their RailKing line. Most of the Premiere stuff seems to be pretty accurate. And even the innaccuracies are in the earlier Proto 1 era, not the more current Proto 2. I have the MTH Proto 1tangerine-blue FM and it's in the Premiere line. BTW....I know you aren't much interested in DCC and TMCC, but there is a company called Digital Dynamics that has a VERY simple kit that converts Proto 1 locos into TMCC operation. It's called an "Equalizer". They are out of them right now, but a newer, improved conversion should be out in about 2 weeks. I have two Proto 1 locos that will get this conversion. I think it involves just replacing the E-unit.
John!!! Good to see you!!! I appreciate the e-mails you've been sending me all these months. I figured this thread would draw you in eventually. I've been thinking off-and-on about grabbing the MTH JC F3 like the one in your picture. Just not ready to drop that big an amount. I've also been considering the new Wabash FM Lionel is coming out with, but it's BIG $$$. And the extra I would pay for Legacy features wouldn't be used on my layout. It would end up running in TMCC mode.
Thanks, Dep,
I still never saw CNJ in those colors, whether traveling through Jersey, Penna., or in the lower east part of N.Y., because a few times they brought freight into N.Y., but in different colors.
I talked to a friend who worked for the CNJ for about 40 years and he said that he could not remember seeing a TM in tangerine and blue colors (he calls them "2400's). He also said the freight crews, in particular, preferred to run them short hood forward in order to keep exhaust smoke out of the cab.
I've done a semi-exhaustive search and could not find any FM that was orange & blue. John & Brian are correct, just green and gold. The JC FM Lionel number is also non-existent. So it's just a fantasy FM.
I, too am a little forgiving on the Coast Guard colors, though I don't have any engines, I have a few rolling stock in red and white.
"I am pretty sure the orange-white-silver one isn't."
Believe it or not Dep, it is. Classic Toy Trains did an article at one time, and I know I have it - just don't know what issue it was in - and the article was about this new loco being tried out by the New Haven. It was done up in a very similar scheme to the one Lionel used. As I recall, the article pointed out this was a completely new scheme for the New Haven, and Lionel jumped on to it with the 2242 F3.
The loco on the New Haven was shortlived, and I understand photos are not all that common, hence the common belief the Lionel version was pure fantasy. But stranger things have happened: how about that all Jade green E8 on the New York Central? I wouldn't have believed that until I saw a photo. But that was another prototypical scheme that was very shortlived.
Thanks to everyone for the valuable insight and information. I think we can safely conclude that the tangerine-blue FM was one of Lonel's early fantasy scheme. A shame that JC didn't pick up on it. It would have looked spectacular. I have also been unable to find a caboose or boxcar painted in tangerine-blue, so I don't think they ever existed either.
Now for another quick question. Back in JC's early days they used heavyweight coaches for passenger use. Did the FM ever get used to pull those coaches or was it strictly for freight use? Dep
brianel027 "I am pretty sure the orange-white-silver one isn't." Believe it or not Dep, it is. Classic Toy Trains did an article at one time, and I know I have it - just don't know what issue it was in - and the article was about this new loco being tried out by the New Haven. It was done up in a very similar scheme to the one Lionel used. As I recall, the article pointed out this was a completely new scheme for the New Haven, and Lionel jumped on to it with the 2242 F3. The loco on the New Haven was shortlived, and I understand photos are not all that common, hence the common belief the Lionel version was pure fantasy. But stranger things have happened: how about that all Jade green E8 on the New York Central? I wouldn't have believed that until I saw a photo. But that was another prototypical scheme that was very shortlived.
WOW! Now I am in shock! Just about everywhere you read or hear that silver version was a fantasy scheme!!!
So the black-orange-white one IS a real paint scheme? They called it McGinnis, so I assumed it was real. I'm not real familiar with the New Haven RR so I don't know for sure.
I know it doesn't matter much to you, but I am disappointed that the McGinnis version doesn't at least have TMCC. To me these are just overpriced Willams units. I wonder if they are even "TMCC ready"? I don't care if they don't have Legacy. I don't see myself converting to that sytem anytime soon. But TMCC, or at least the potential to plug in TMCC, would be a great attraction and the buying factor in picking up these locos. Here's Williams New Haven in an F7 version.
Price is retail $329.95 and we all know that price can be beaten.
Lionel's loco retails at $499.95. It is virtually identical except for having the grab rails on the fronts of the locos. That's something I can easily add on for a few cents. If Lionel is gonna be competitive with outfits like Williams in the Traditional line, they have a long way to go to match the pricing.Dep
Dep.....YES.... to your quick question. In my previous post is a link which has pictures of the Trainmasters pulling passenger trains
Hey Dep, I couldn't find a color pic on line... the one that was in the CTT article was a color photo. But the first link is a B&W photo (and you can see Lionel took a few artistic liberties, while maintaining the "feel" of the paint scheme). The other links are more info on the short-lived loco on the New Haven.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nh/nh3101ark.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_P-12-42
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Quincy_Adams_(train)
When you read this last article above, you realize that not only did Lionel have the wrong engine type, but also the New Haven loco with that scheme never pulled a mixsed freight. Times have changed... probably wasn't too much of a big deal in 1958-59. I know it wasn't for me, as that was a loco I had as a kid (I thought aqs a kid the NH stood for New Hampshire!)
PS: I agree, the Lionel versions here are overpriced and the Williams are a better buy. As you all know, I'm no fan of the control electronics, but I agree at that price, the electronics should be there. I think Lionel knows they have a hit here, despite the MTH and Williams versions of the 2242.
Even the K-Line by Lionel New Haven Alco FA's offered a year or two ago sold out pretty fast. And that's the second run after they were first offered by MDK K-Line as an uncataloged KCC Bonus. Hard to find either issue of them now.
AND YES, the William's pic you posted above is accurate of a real paint scheme on the New Haven.
Thanks Chuck!!! That's excellent. Now I just need to get a passenger heavyweight set that is scale and isn't a Blue Comet. I think MTH makes a green version which might look nice.
Brian: The NH I liked as a kid was the Little Joe American Flyer loco with the black/orange/white McGinnins paint on it. I had AF as a kid...parents couldn't afford Lionel. But I had a steamer (with the steamer chuff sound long before Lionel had it). I LOVE that B&W picture of the NH!!! No wonder Lionel went with it. You're probably right that Lionel has a winner with the NH releases. I don't doubt they will release a B unit for the McGinnis at a later date. The paint schemes are just too dang attractive to resist. LOL....I may have just talked myself into a NH F7 from Williams. I can get the TMCC/sound conversion from Digital Dynamics. It WOULD be an awesome setup. Dep
Deputy The NH I liked as a kid was the Little Joe American Flyer loco with the black/orange/white McGinnins paint on it.
The NH I liked as a kid was the Little Joe American Flyer loco with the black/orange/white McGinnins paint on it.
That loco was representative of the New Haven class EP5 passenger electric locomotive... Lionel made one in the postwar era too, but Lionel's model was far less realistic, and lacked the prototypical 6-wheel truck arrangement that AF had. So, in all honesty, you had the "better" model, in my humple opinion!
"Unless bought from a known and trusted dealer who can vouch otherwise, assume every train for sale requires servicing before use"
Ah, but there were Jersey Central Fairbanks-Morse diesels with a tangerine and blue paint scheme, but they didn't look like the Lionel Trainmaster.
They were 1500HP Fairbanks-Morse units, and they were kind of a "Royal Blue" overall, similar to the "Blue Comet" blue, with tangerine striping. Think of the Jersey Central's green diesels with the yellow "toothpaste" stripes.
One's pictured (a little worse for wear) on page eight of the Morning Sun book "Trackside Around The Garden State, 1950-1975, With Bob Goin and John Dziobko, Jr."
For brevity's sake I call it "Trackside Around Jersey With The Jersey Guys."
And why did Lionel paint that Trainmaster the way they did? Either they thought it looked cool, or they just plain fouled up! Could be why they only made it for one year in the 50's. The strange thing is both Williams and MTH made the same "mistake" at one time or another. Very odd.
RMT, however, did one of their Jersey Central "Beeps" in that F-M blue and tangerine scheme, I was lucky enough to find one.
Anyway, I did a little searching and here's a great shot of a tangerine and blue F-M...
http://archives.anthraciterailroads.org/view_image.php?photoID=40
Isn't that something?
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