Now that I have finally joined this forum, I have this burning question: is the traditional-size 0-8-0 that Lionel introduced in 2008 really traditional size? The length given for it in the catalog is almost the same as that of Lionel's scale 0-8-0s sold in previous years, and almost as long as my O27 Berkshire. A real Berkshire is about 20 feet longer than a USRA 0-8-0. I saw one last Christmas at Macy's and it looked so much larger than the traditional size boxcar it was pulling (Pennsylvania Flyer set) that it seems way too big to be traditional size. Has anyone ever put one of these next to a scale 0-8-0? How do they compare? An O27 0-8-0 is a great idea, but the one Lionel came out with seems way too big, relative to other O27 steam locos.
...UPDATE....At a recent train show a seller there had the "traditional size" Pennsylvania 0-8-0 from the Pennsylvania Flyer set on a shelf next to a scale GP9 and right above a "traditional size" Lionel Berkshire. It was quite obvious that the 0-8-0 is a scale-size locomotive. It was every bit as tall as the GP9 and clearly was built to a larger scale than the Berkshire. I am convinced that the 0-8-0 that Lionel is marketing as "traditional size" is NOT. That is to say, proportionally it is way too big to look correct with 6464 boxcars, etc. The Berkshire of recent years IS correctly proportioned for "traditional size" rolling stock. As far as I can tell, the inexpensive 0-8-0 Lionel is marketing as "traditional size" is actually scale size and would make a great switch engine for scale operators. The version to get is the Santa Fe because it has a full complement of side rods, unlike the PRR version. Some dealers are selling the Santa Fe version separately (from the set). Lionel seems to equate "low price" with "traditional size."
...Tom Fann
I have one and its looks fine to me when pulling traditional sized rolling stck on my layout. i almost must say that aside from the smoke unit being so so and the air whisle taking too much power, I am very pleased with how it preforms at slow speeds in my yard.
Tom, one has to bear in mind that making "scale" comparisions with 027 types of products is rather subjective at best. And I say that as an 027 guy myself! For example, many larger types of locomotives were produced with shorter lengths so that they could negotiate the 027 curve and miss the switch box housing. The U36B introduced by Lionel MPC had a totally new shell made from new tooling, but was made at a shorter than scale length so the shell could be placed on the chassis being used for the GP-9.
On the other hand, take the Plymouth switcher made by K-Line. This is a scale proportioned product, yet to me it looks too small although I know it is accurate in proportions. The typical 3-rail knuckle couplers made this loco look even more odd. So K-Line included scale couplers with the loco and the knuckle type also included should you prefer those. But then in a move I'll never understand, they made a set with this loco and included the prior MARX-based 027 5000-series types of cars in the set with scale couplers on those. Lionel has reissued this in the same arrangement.
I personally like those small K-Line 5000-series cars, but Lionel has yet to reissue them, maybe because they are so non-scale and are 027 cars. BUT then where do they put the few they have made??? In a set with a scale proportioned switcher, all with scale couplers.... go figure.
Another example with be the locomotive premiere in the Atlas Industrial Rail line... the very smallish 4-4-2 Atlantic. It's a decent loco for sure, but looks very small when compared to even the traditionally sized sorts of cars, like 6464 boxs cars. You'd think a company like Atlas could have done a little bit better in the proportion of this loco.... makes me appreciate the good work the engineers at Lionel did for the most part, when it came to "selective compression."
The exception here would be the Lionel 44-ton Centercab switcher, which is a long way off from the actual loco it was based upon. Yet if you compare the scale of the Lionel 44-ton switcher to some of the current new centercab switchers being made for today's railroads, it's not far off at all - it aqctually resembles some of those much more. I prefer to think of the Lionel model as just a Centercab switcher without the weight designation.
So being an 027 operator today, you just have to pick and choose what looks right to you, and what looks right on your layout. David Smith, a memer here on this forum, has some videos on YouTube showing his very neat layout. He runs a lot of the smaller Lionel cars, yet they look right at home on his layout.
Hey, if you want a laugh when it comes to this whole "scale" thing, take a view of this cartoon I recently found: even Donald Duck had some scale issues! Maybe this has been posted before, but I'd never seen it. It's great, and with a happy ending too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_1U8ivkY7I&feature=related
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
I love this engine. I have two I bought from the Pennsy Flyer set break-ups. I just finished modifying one to put the correct Belpaire Firebox on the boiler. I plan on getting two more to combine them to make my own PRR 0-8-8-0 since I can't afford the Legacey one. They are great pullers, about 7 light modern cars. And the are great slow movers. Only thing is the whistle they could of made it a litle better. It is very weak in my opinion. But I plan on replacing it with a Williams True Blast II system.
I have the Santa Fe 0-8-0 Freight set. Engine No. 123. This engine is more scale than traditional. This 0-8-0 has more running gear detail than the traditional Lionel 0-8-0.
It does have some issues with the O-31 turns. It seems to wobble, and lose it's ground, stopping the engine. I'll save it to run on the on the Christmas 48" turns.
Kurt
I have the scale Boston & Albany 0-8-0. It runs well at slow speeds but has a lurch at faster speeds. Took it to Lionel Service station and they couldn't fix the problem. Going to get Command M from ERR and drop that in to fix problem. I did this with a SP 2-4-2 and it fixed lurching.
laz57
Well, how does it compare in size to other O27 steam locos? Do you have any? I have Lionel's Berkshire, and it is just slightly taller than a 6464 boxcar, as it should be. When I saw the Pennsy 0-8-0 at Macy's it looked enrormous - a good deal taller than the boxcar in the set, which would be wrong.
HERE'S THE ANSWER TO MY OWN QUESTION:
At a recent train show a seller there had the "traditional size" Pennsylvania 0-8-0 from the Pennsylvania Flyer set on a shelf next to a scale GP9 and right above a "traditional size" Lionel Berkshire. It was quite obvious that the 0-8-0 is a scale-size locomotive. It was every bit as tall as the GP9 and clearly was built to a larger scale than the Berkshire. I am convinced that the 0-8-0 that Lionel is marketing as "traditional size" is NOT. That is to say, proportionally it is way too big to look correct with 6464 boxcars, etc. The Berkshire of recent years IS correctly proportioned for "traditional size" rolling stock. As far as I can tell, the inexpensive 0-8-0 Lionel is marketing as "traditional size" is actually scale size and would make a great switch engine for scale operators. The version to get is the Santa Fe because it has a full complement of side rods, unlike the PRR version. Some dealers are selling the Santa Fe version separately (from the set).
Lionel seems to equate "low price" with "traditional size," which I resent. All of the inexpensive diesels except for the ALCo FA are, like this 0-8-0, scale-sized in basic dimensions and work well with scale-sized rolling stock, yet Lionel insists on calling them "traditional size." I just think that's wrong.
Forget 1/4", legacy, etc. for the scale of the Lionel USRA 0-8-0. The now common Lionel 0-8-0 is exactly 6mm=1'0" scale or, put differently, 1:50.8 scale ratio. This is bigger than traditional O27, but smaller than 1:48 scale (1/4"=1'0") by over 15% in cubic volume which is what you see. Have you ever noticed the very apparent size difference between 1/24th and 1/25th scale car models? Little changes in linear scale translate into large changes in apparent size.
As a follow-up to my post yesterday on the Lionel 0-8-0's actual scale I would say something about Lionel's "traditional" scale which is seemingly never discussed as a per foot or scale ratio size. As a guy who designed scale models as a profession for decades I can say that no one starts to do an even somewhat representational object without picking a rough scale. Not being a collector I have a limited sample, but my very typical 8206 Hudson is, for sure, based on a scale of 7/32"= 1'. An inch-based scale would have been most likely in the postwar period. Obviously they played with sizes, but the two important measurements of driver wheelbase and width are right on that 1:54.8 scale.
Bob Nelson
My beginner's hack through Lionel's scales jungle continues with the discovery that the switcher tender usually supplied with the 6mm=1'0" 0-8-0 looks too big because it is actually full O scale (1/4"=1'0") or, in three dimensions as we see it, over 16% larger than the 0-8-0. Measured @ 6mm scale the tender is 11' wide where the real equipment is 10' wide.
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