your thoughts.....

[Big_Boy_4005]

Tony, it is impossible to offend me, so don't worry. I was just saying that for people who don't know me as well. They MAY think I'm crazy. DIFFERENT yes, crazy I don't think so.

Actually there is a small group who like the RAILROAD graffiti, people who take photos of some of the more unusal works, the large colorful ones like I posted. There is a member that posts over on the Trains Magazine forum, that has a bunch of really cool photos on his website. I think the guy is even a cop.

I think it's fun to look at and study this stuff, to try and fugure out what motivates someone to go out and paint the side of a freight car. Not just to say "I WAS HERE" but to make a real statement like "LOOK WHAT I HAVE CREATED". Of course most of the stuff is just "gobbledy-gook" but if you look closely at the first one I posted, or go to the likks, you will see something that may move you. Look closely.

You know, spray paint isn't cheap, and it takes time and effort to make images large enough to be seen. Yeah, it's still vandalism, but there are a lot more small easy targets than a railroad car. Something that size takes planning!!! How much paint, what colors, what to draw, and how big, all while trying not to get caught. Now that is dedication, again albeit misguided. There are a lot of challenges when you stop and think about it.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Elliot:

I wasn't trying to call you crazy, just playing. Sorry if I offended.

We all have different perspectives, based upon our experiences. I think it was Plato that said that we all live in a cave & we see the world as shadows cast on the back wall. There was something else about colored curtains on the opening; each person's curtains are different colors, which affects how the shadows look.

Today's the last day of my conference, and I'm looking forward to the trip home. I'm on the 5:15 pm Acela express from Boston to Stamford. I anticipate getting home in about 12 hours from the time of this posting, give or take 30 minutes. My son's been missing me terribly, and I miss everyone back home, too.

On the other hand, I did have 3 good nights of sleep, and I got to see "The Return of the King" for the second time! [;)]

Tony

[Dr. John]

If someone wants to add graffitti to something they own (e.g. a toy train car) that's their business. Personally, I would not choose to do so. My problem with graffitti is when it's done to someone else's property, whether gang related or not. It's still vandalism and still a crime.

It is true, if unfortunate, that accurate portrayals of modern freight cars would include graffitti. At least most of the old hobos of old like Texino Bozino used chalk. 'Course, they didn't have access to spray cans back then.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Well Sask my young friend, save the outrage for the truely outrageous. We are talking about one of THE CHEAPEST and MOST COMMON cars Lionel ever produced. The most valuable part of that car is the trucks, and they aren't even that good.

I used to think it was sacrilege to deface a piece of Loinel equipment. Then I started cutting and kitbashing!!!! Nothing good, just cheap junk like that. Don't worry, when you have enough of them, you'll start to see them differently. By the way, I'm glad to see the graffiti itself isn't the problem.[swg]

Reading over my initial post again, I must say that it does sound quite a bit more defensive and extreme than I intended it to be. I'm certainly aware that it is an extremely common car. I'm not against repainting and/or kitbashing common postwar pieces. I'm all for it. You can come up with some very interesting models that way. Actually, if this car was repainted beforehand and then had the graffiti put on, I wouldn't mind at all. What I was more or less trying to say is that it just doesn't "seem right" the way it is. There's just something about it that "looks wrong" if you know what I mean.

I have seen on ebay before some lots sold by one person containing a graffitied (not nearly as much as this car) Lionel frieght car and some Homies figures. These figures can be bought from vending machines at Wal-Mart and I must say that I've seriously considered getting some for my layout, but to me they seem just a bit too big. For true O scale trains they probably wouldn't look that bad. One lot had a cheap postwar gondola in it with "LIONEL" right on the side. I don't mind that someone altered the car, but it just looked bad having Lionel on the side with the graffiti on it. To me the classic postwar look and graffiti don't go together at all. That's more or less what I've been trying to say all along.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yeah Dave, some people have no respect for other people's property.[:O][banghead][:-,][sigh][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][:P]

BTW Dave congrats on post #900, only 100 more.[swg]

[FJ and G]

The graffiti in Elliot's photos are actually pretty pleasing. DOESN"T it make you wonder why the SOO didn't put a nice map or billboard on their car instead of providing a blank slate for grafitti artists. At the very least SOO could have leased the ad space out.

Now, the grafitti that is really annoying is when someone spray paints graffiti over someone else's graffiti. How thoughtless of them! With so many freightcars to paint you'd think they'd have more consideration for their fellow sprayers!

Dave Vergun

[Big_Boy_4005]

Tony, I don't think anyone is crazy here. I just hope that the others don't think I'm crazy for liking it the way I do. A big part of everyone's opinion about graffiti is based on their exposure and experience with it, and in most cases it is usually negative.

I guess I've lead a somewhat sheltered life, though I have traveled and seen it everywhere, I have NEVER HAD TO LIVE WITH IT!!! Maybe that is why I can tune it out so easily.

All of the discussions have been fun, intellectual, and very enlightening. I don't think I'll get too many arguements on that account. I'm suddenly feeling the urge to write a book!!! A pictorial essay on railroad graffiti. [8][:O][;)][:)] I'm serious actually. I wonder if it would sell???

[Anonymous]

Elliot:

You're right, I don't feel any connection to a freight car. Except that I'm about the size of one! [:D][;)]

As the saying goes, different strokes for different folks. It's your pike, do what ever makes you happy. I certainly won't stop you. I may call you crazy, but that's a different story! [;)][:D]

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thank you Tony, your comments have just gotten me to realize something. It is an understanding of why certain examples of graffiti are so unacceptable and unpleasant, and others aren't, or prehaps shouldn't be.

If people are inconvenienced by graffiti, forcably exposed to it, it becomes a problem. The subways are a perfect example, the same goes for street / gang graffiti. The difference between those and railroad graffiti is, you have no real personal contact with freight cars!! You are not forced to look at them. Freight cars aren't like buildings or mailboxes, or street signs, or even subway cars. We have no connection or attachment to them, except that we like trains!!!

As for the question of whether we want it on our models or not, it depends on personal taste, and the level of REALISM we desire. Things like era being modeled, fall into the catagory of taste. I am very into modern era modeling, so for me graffiti is as real as trees and grass. I want to study and represent it as a part of my little world.

I think I'm ready to write my sociology thesis. The problem is I'm not in school to get credit for it.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Being a past regular rider of the NYC Subway, my view on graffiti is that it's not going to be on my layout.

You have to understand that I've ridden the Subway both when the graffiti was at its worst and in the 90s when it was eliminated. The difference was like night & day. In the old days, all of the "art" made the trains look dingy & dirty. You couldn't look anywhere without seeing some graffitist's signature. There was even graffiti on the graffiti!

Now, with all of that gone, the Subway is actually much more pleasant to ride. The city's got cleaning facilities at all of their yards & the cars are thoroughly cleaned every day. The only way the graffitists have been able to leave their mark is by scratching their logos into the plexiglass windows with keys.

Don't get me wrong -- there are still stations where you take your life into your own hands when you get off the train late at night, though a lot of that's been cleaned up, too.

This has also colored my view of graffiti as art. Yes, I've seen some incredibly artistic stuff done by some of these persons, but by and large, most of it is just a signature & by no means art. A lot of so called art these days is trash. We have a piece at my office that looks like it was done by someone who threw darts at paint filled baloons attached to the canvas. To me, that's a drop cloth.

Nope, I don't want that stuff on my layout. But if you do, go for it.

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigJim

"What is wrong with graffiti???"

Maybe what you didn't know is that much of todays graffiti is GANG related! There have been several newspaper articles in the past year about it. Not only is it on RR cars but it is in your streets. As impessive as some of this art is, I will not buy it.

Years ago there only such benign graffiti as HERBY and SMOKIN' JOE and the I love so and so type stuff. I have no problem with that. But this new gang stuff is too much for me.

I think there should be a distinction made between "street" graffiti, which is stationary, and clearly gang related, and "railroad" graffiti which is mobile. Although many of the same people are responsible for both types, the meaning is different between the two.

Please don't misunderstand me, all graffiti is VANDALISM, but some of it is also ART. The secret is to set aside the notion that it is all bad, and judge the image on it's own merit. Some of this stuff shows serious talent, misguided as it may be.

As Sask mentioned eariler there was a series of topics about graffiti over on the Model Railroader forum. I STARTED ALL OF THOSE TOPICS!!!!

These are the images that got me thinking in the first place:





Here are the links to those topics, feel free to post to them, but read them first. They are very interesting!!!

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12463

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12825

[BigJim]

"What is wrong with graffiti???"

Maybe what you didn't know is that much of todays graffiti is GANG related! There have been several newspaper articles in the past year about it. Not only is it on RR cars but it is in your streets. As impessive as some of this art is, I will not buy it.

Years ago there only such benign graffiti as HERBY and SMOKIN' JOE and the I love so and so type stuff. I have no problem with that. But this new gang stuff is too much for me.

[Anonymous]

I see plenty of this on the trains in my part of the USA . It won't be seen on my layout, the
[censored] & [%-)] RR!

[Buckeye Riveter]

Here in Roger's Corners, Ohio, Elv. 936 feet, we have highway snipers and wild lions trying to kill small animals but we don't have graffiti covered train cars or litter on the ground. [:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by guilfordrr

Neat, but the graffiti looks artificial!

You're right, it looks out of scale. The style is nice, but it is too large for the car and type of graffiti that it is. Tags, even fancy ones are usually placed lower on the side of the car, because most "artists" don't carry ladders.[swg]

I guess I've become a bit of a graffiti critic.[:0][:p][:I][;)]

[guilfordrr]

Neat, but the graffiti looks artificial!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well Sask my young friend, save the outrage for the truely outrageous. We are talking about one of THE CHEAPEST and MOST COMMON cars Lionel ever produced. The most valuable part of that car is the trucks, and they aren't even that good.

I used to think it was sacrilege to deface a piece of Loinel equipment. Then I started cutting and kitbashing!!!! Nothing good, just cheap junk like that. Don't worry, when you have enough of them, you'll start to see them differently. By the way, I'm glad to see the graffiti itself isn't the problem.[swg]

[Anonymous]

I personally hate it!

Like Amtrak Jack, I have a toy train layout where everything is nice and clean and everyone lives in nice clean Plasticville houses. On my HO layout, I do have messy and dirty things, but no graffiti. I guess I like having it my own world where these things don't go on. I don't want to deface my beautiful trains. That's just my preference.

But don't get me wrong, I do have an appreciation for modellers who do graffiti. In the MR forums, there have been some topics about graffiti and some people have shown pictures of their models. One person's graffiti-filled SP bay window caboose was certainly impressive. These people should be applauded for their efforts.

The reason I don't like this car is not because someone put graffiti on a model train, it's the car they chose to do it on. Why would they do that to a postwar Lionel hopper car? I know, it's a very common car and I could collect a few hundred of them on ebay very quickly if I wanted to, but that's not the point. Potwar trains attract a certain crowd. Old Lionel trains like this one conjure up images of the kids who got them some Christmas morning or the old layout they once ran on or simply just the time they were from-a simpler time where many of the problems we have today didn't exist. It's a nostalgia thing. No enthusiast who is strictly into postwar would be interested in graffiti. Seriously, can anyone picture there being a single bit of graffiti in Lionelville or Plasticville? I can see doing this to a more modern scale-like car (or just any more modern car, even MPC), but not this.

[FJ and G]

First off, the trains I remember in the 60s and early 70s were largely devoid of graffiti and this is the era I'm modeling.

If I were modeling the modern era, you'd bet I'd have graffiti on my trains. Fact is, about every other car I see on the CSX and NS (going to and from work every day by VRE) has graffiti on it. Even the bridge structures and even big rocks have graffiti.

Why would I model graffiti?

Because it's a fact of life and we try to model the real world (if you are hi-railing). But, if I were to do graffiti, I'd much rather take photos of real rolling stock and paint my own or do photo transfers (article in last year in MR shows you how to do this technique).

dav

[spankybird]

I got to agree with Big Boy, it looks pertty cool. [8D] Not a bad buy for $10.00. The car is worth that and you got a custom paint job.

It won't be long and someone will be selling decales with graffiti to add to your cars.

tom

[Big_Boy_4005]

I love it!!

If it was on a scale car I would buy it!!![tup][tup]

What is wrong with graffiti???

[ChiefEagles]

[tdn] its not for me.

[Anonymous]

Since I model a TOY train world, my layout is of the perfect world. Clean and bright colors, with lovers holding hands. Nothing is out-of-place. But for people that want to model the "other side of the tracks" I refer you to David's post by that name.

[dougdagrump]

[#ditto]

[Anonymous]

This reminds me of train cars that go near my house. Do any of you guys like it?
I don't.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=481&item=3191723578&rd=1