Do You Add Weight to Your Rolling Stock?

[Anonymous]

I was explaing about the NMRA's recomended practice of adding weight to rolling stock with a friend, good guy he bought all of my HO so he has a heavy investment in my O toy equipment. [;)]. He had asked why the HO kits I had assembled were so much heavier than the ones he assembled. Took him to their web site and showed him the recomendation and explained how I had used self adhesive automotive wheels weights to bring them up to the recomended weight. While there I noticed the recomended practice for O was a beginning weight of 5oz with an additional weight of 1oz added for each 1" of body length.

If this practice is followed a lot of rolling stock would weigh close to or more than 16oz. I checked a few pieces and have found some as much as 8oz light. I have not made a weight check on everything but am wondering if anyone follows this practice. While it made a signifigant improvement in reliability and rolling characteristics of my old HO, I haven't seen the need for it in O toy.

Your opinion?

Take care,
Steve

[ChiefEagles]

Had a couple of real light pieces that I did because they wanted to derail when backing in turnouts and coupled to long trains. My fishing weights come in handy there. Normally, unless operating problems, no.

[spankybird]

Hi Steve,

I have added weight to some of my rolling stock and even some of the engines. I did not know of a rule of thumb for this. If the car was having problem on curves or going thru turnouts, I would add some weight.

It has seems to work for me.


tom

[brianel027]

Steve, instead of weight I remove and reattach the trucks on nearly every piece of rolling stock on own, postwar or otherwise. I have found the main culprit for derailments is the wobble of the trucks. When you are pushing a train backwards (exp. on 027 curves) the pressure is on the couplers of each truck. With this pressure, if the trucks are loose, it will cause the truck to work forward, raising the inside wheel of that truck and thus causing the car to derail.

Making my modifications almost completely eliminates the need for weight in rolling stock. The except may be a car with roller pickups when the roller may be bouncing the car off the track on switches or curves.

But on engines, I always add weight. Especially with the lightwieght types of locos, like the Lionel Industrial Switchers where I add substantial weight. My nephew has one of the little Lionel 8700 Rock Island Docksider Steamers. As it came, it barely pulled any cars. With modifications to the traction tire and mcuh added weight, that little loco now can pull up to 15 cars with die cast trucks. It easily pulls a car of 8-10 cars with no problems.

Two other things can contribute to derailments on rolling stock: tight or small coupler openings (the space inside the closed knuckle). If these are small, when connected to another car, the coupler will not swing freely inside eachother. The other culprit is uneven wheel gauge... I have found this especially when buying metal fast angle wheels in bulk that are not made by Lionel. The ones I have gotten I believe were Korean knockoffs. I could see just by lining up the wheels on a table, that the gauge (space between the wheels) was all over the place.

In this case, what you need to do is to be sure that the same pair of wheels on the same truck have identical wheel gauge. The gauge can vary some from truck to truck, BUT not on the same truck.

Again, my observations are based on 027 track operation.

[sulafool]

Brianel, what exactly is your modification? I can't see how merely removing and reattaching the trucks would improve anything....

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm reluctant to add weight to my cars, as it will reduce the number of cars that an engine can pull. Weight is more important in 2 rail O, where you have smaller flanges, thus less room for error.

I favor good track work, and proper adjustment of trucks, before weight. Scale cars, which I use almost exclusively, are usually heavy enough that they don't cause problems.

One exception is Lionel's 2 bay ACF hoppers, their short wheelbase and light weight can be a problem when backing. They may need attention, but they were tested under the worst possible conditions, and in normal operation, may do just fine. Flat cars can also cause problems, but there are easy to weight simply by adding loads.

[dougdagrump]

I had replaced some older plastic trucks with some K-line diecast but was very disapointed with the quality of them. A couple of them came with bent axles and excess material on the inside edge of the knuckles. Unfortunately I didn't notice the knuckle issue till after a few derailments but that was a simple fix.

[ben10ben]

I have been slowly adding weight to all my MPC and LTI era rolling stock with plastic trucks. I wrap a piece of solder around the inner axles, which will usually make a big difference, and then bring them up to NMRA standards with fishing sinkers if I still have problems. All of my postwar cars stay as-is.

By the way, as long as your trucks are in good condition, the statement that heavier cars reduce the number of cars you can pull is a myth. Once you overcome the inertia of a car standing still, it makes almost no difference whether the car weighs 5 oz. or 5 lbs.(assuming, again, that the trucks are in good condition). Don't forget that we aren't lifting the cars, we're pulling them.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Ben, what you are saying about weight and pulling is very true for flat track. It becomes a problem when you have a grade to climb, then it can add up. Keep in mind that the more you weight your models, the more they behave like real trains.

Inertia is a two way street. Not only could it be difficult to start, but it could also be difficult to stop. Of course, this is only noticable in extreme cases. Either way, the more weight you try to pull, the more you will expose weak couplers. Not all couplers have the same holding strength.

I like the idea of wrapping solder around the axles, quick, easy , and low center of gravity. I would certainly consider that for those hoppers I mentioned earlier.[:)]

[spankybird]

Hi Guys,
I should add that the cars that I have added weight to are usually a lighter build car, and most have been Lionel or K-Lines. It’s not anything to do with the trucks, out side of how much weight a die cast truck adds, it’s more the pulling of the engine with also have a longer train and heaver cars behind the light one. The car lifts off the track on the curves only because of lack of weight ratio to the drag on it from behind and the pulling force in front of it.

tom

[lionelsoni]

I have found it helpful to put weight in (empty) tenders and in baggage and express cars, which tend to be lighter than the passenger cars behind them. It amuses me to me to use prototype railroad spikes for this. There's certainly plenty of room.

[ChiefEagles]

OK Brian, how do you tighten the trucks? I remember reading back in the 80's about removing trucks and tightening the "wobble" in them.

[brianel027]

For starters, I stand by what I said above and find adding weight to cars is unnecessary, as far as derailments are concerned.

Most rolling stock from Lionel and K-Line have the trucks attached to the body with a rivet. These rivets lod the truck, but have a great deal of play in them allowing the truck to be jiggled up and down on the car body. I drill the rivet out of the body of the car and the truck. Then depending on the car type, use a blackened hex head or button top screw using an allen wrench for these. In a box car or concealed body / frame type of car, I use a steel truss screw. With both these I use a nylon centered steel lock nut. I get this all the way tight, and then loosen it just enough to allow the truck to turn left to right freely.

I have found this truck reattachement takes away the truck wobble and allows me to run sa 9 inch MPC era flat car, tank car or box car as the lead car of a 10-12 car train (other cars all with die cast trucks) and still no derailments - even backing up the train.

On the Industrial Rail cars, I remove the screw holding the truck to the frame. Then using a Dremel with a grinding bit, I take down the nub the sticks up from the truck into the car body. I also use the Dremel with grinding bit to take down the stationary side of the coupler and to take down the size of the knuckle from the inside. I use a Sharpie Marker to touch up the black color.

I also do the same above procedure to my MTH Raillking cars. On my K-Line Classic box cars, I just make sure the screw is tightened in all the way. On some other K-Line cars with die cast truck, if I find there is excessive truck wobble, I use a special sized screw (I've have to look up the size) with a metal washer to reattach the truck, forcing the screw into the truck. Once or twice, I've had to drill out the hole in the truck a little larger and use a different type of screw.

Again, I find truck wobble to be the number one culprit on derailments. Followed by coupler opening size, and wheel gauge on modern cars with fast angle wheels. On post war cars, loose wheel wobble on the axles can contribute. I keep the wheels cleaned and lubricate the wheel where it sets in the axle. If the axle nubs are well worn, I will order a replacement axle. I've also used a cut piece of blackened Plastruct pipe over the wheel axle to help reduce the play of the wheels, though this method does create a little extra drag on the wheels.

[ChiefEagles]

Thanks Brian. Now I remember reading that years ago. You are right.

[FJ and G]

I've heard the "experts" say similar things as Brian, in that adding weight is like trying to cure the symptoms and not the problem, namely trackwork and truck alignment.

However, I've added weight to my Lionel RS-3 single-motor lightweight locomotive and tractive effort has improved dramatically, perhaps by a factor of 2 or 3. I cram anything available from lead to nuts and bolts. Placing the weight in the right places increases tractive effort and decreases wobble.

dav

[cnw1995]

Boy, adding just a little weight - as a gondola or flatcar load - or even a wooden block or two in a box car seems to make a tremendous difference. I have some inadvertent grades on my layout - between foam boards - some tilt up and down due to the gravel underneath it all (they lay over a raised crawlspace) With a little weight, the very light cars don't ride up and down on the grades - uncoupling themselves - I've successfully used the tiny concrete weights used to anchor sets of balloons at events - I happen to help set-up and tear down these - and they'll give them to you if you ask. (ever wonder why huge bunches or balloons stay put when all they seem to be tethered to is an attractive bag or box - well, that little bag is full of little concrete or cement cones...)

[daan]

The best solution would be sprung trucks and cars with a bit of weight. In normal operation the wheels would be pushed on the track by the springs and therefor won't be able to step over the rail. I think that the solution of making the trucks more rigid (less play) is the second to best option, because it also forces the wheels in the trackwork. The only problem comes when you want to get up to a steep gradient, the wheels on the outside carry the car, and the wheels in the middle hover above the rail, ready to jump off..
But you need a steep hill to get that far.

[FJ and G]

I wonder if die-cast trucks would improve performance over plastic?

dav

[ben10ben]

Elliot,
Very true about grades. As something travels up a grade, it does become more about lifting it up than pulling it along, so heavy cars do make a big difference. Buried somewhere in the April issue of Trains magazine is a statement about how much a 1/2% grade knocks off the tractive effort of a prototype loco. I can't find it at the moment, but I'll keep looking.

David,
Die-cast trucks do make a big improvement over plastic trucks. One of the big things with weight is that the lower it is on the car, the more effective it is. Changing out the trucks for ones that weigh 2-3 times lowers the center of gravity quite a bit, and makes them much more stable on curves.


Daan,
Sprung trucks are a good idea, but on a typical O gauge truck, the springs are there for nothing more than looks. Most of the springs used on trucks are way too stiff to do much of anything. Unless the car weights 3 or 4 lbs., the springs won't compress any at all. What are really needed are equalized trucks. Equalized trucks are built in such a way that every wheel is always on the rails, and each wheel can move independently of the others to allow this to happen. As far as I know, Weaver is the only 3 rail O gauge company that sells equalized trucks.

[fjerome]

despite what brianel says above with conviction, my baggage car stringlining problems were due entirely to the fact that the baggage cars weighed over a pound less than the fully "interiorized" passenger cars behind them. once i added weight, they stayed on the tracks.

now, i did have to replace the trucks on my SF anniversary set cars because the original trucks had too short a wheelbase and did not roll well resulting in stringlining throughout the consist. replaced the trucks with ones from the current SF set and now my ABBA 9 car Super Chief behaves very well.

[waltrapp]

I tried matching the NMRA standards on my O27 layout and had to remove the weights. On O27 curves there was too much drag and the cars would lean 'inward' and derail.

O27 can be a pain in the butt at times! But yet I tolerate it!

I removed the weights and went back to my Father's advice: put the heavy cars first and the lighter cars last.

- walt

[lionelsoni]

I'm with "fjerome" and Walt. Keep the heavy cars up front and add weight to light cars, like baggage, express, and tenders, that must run ahead of heavy ones.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

I'm with "fjerome" and Walt. Keep the heavy cars up front and add weight to light cars, like baggage, express, and tenders, that must run ahead of heavy ones.

That is a good way to handle it, but it gets a little tricky sometimes with freight cars. They often get sorted by how much pull a coupler can stand, especially if you want to pull a long train. In my younger days I was into pulling contests, and had trains of over 50 MPC cars being pulled by a single postwar steamer. It took some juggling to pull that off. Heavy cars to the front, weak couplers to the back was the basic rule.

Ben, no need to dig for that info on my account, but thanks. I saw it, I subscribe.[swg]

[sulafool]

Dave,
I can verify your improvement with weighting down an rs3 loco. I have a dual motored one that struggled while towing a fairly small string up the standard Lionel trestle set. Using stick on weights from the R/C airplane crowd, I added 5 1/2 ounces to the engine--mostly in the middle underneath the electronics and a small pile over each truck-- and now that sucker pulls at least as well as a Pullmor w/magnetraction Geep. For me, that is my minimum acceptable standard. Except for tiny switchers and Beeps of course.

[eZAK]

If you want to take the slop out of a car but don't want to deal with the rivet .

Try this!

Get some plastic washers (home center, clear/white type)

Cut one side to center then slip between truck and frame.

Usally 1 or 2 per truck is all that is needed.

[Anonymous]

While the comments in regards gauging, truck centering and fixing are no doubt correct, I have found that weighting cars and engines pays huge dividends in improved operation. I weight ALL my cars to at least 1.5 pounds. Passenger cars included.

Couple of things to watch for. I bought a Weaver car that had a weight plate attached in the center of the car from the factory. This weight was held on by double-sided sticky tape. The weight and the tape worked to warp the car frame. I attach my weights over the trucks using RTV. Avoid center of car weights on cars with plastic frames.

On grades, and I have a couple of 4% runs, the extra weight does really impact the ability of the train to climb the grade. Well all that means is that each grade now has a 'helper' district exactly like the prototype. I don't run dummies and like most people have far more engines than I can ever use. So now these extra engines are used for the helper district.

Weight them down is my motto. Really makes for a better running railroad....

[cnw1995]

What are the NMRA weight standards for O? Anyone know roughly what they are?

[Anonymous]

cnw1995 -- The way I read the NMRA recomended practice for O is as follows:

A car is assigned a starting weight of 5 oz. Then an additional weight of 1 oz is added for each 1 in. of car body length. So if a car body measures 10 in. it should weigh 15 oz, ie 5 oz starting + (1 oz x 10 in) = 5 oz + 10 oz = 15 oz. So if you pull a gondola out of the Lionel box and it weighs 8 oz and has a body length of 10" you should add 7 oz of additional weight, ie 15 oz needed - 8 oz measured = 7 oz to add.

At least that is the way I read the practice. A web search using the keywords "NMRA car weight" should provide the web link.

Thanks for all the comments I was wondering what the general practice in the field was.

Steve

[brianel027]

Well I can't argue with any of you guys who find the weights in cars work for you. We all have different layouts, different track and run trains of different lengths.

I usually run trains of 8-12 cars. At one time I was adding weight to cars and then found for my layout, that the tightening of the trucks to the frames solved many of my problems. Checking wheel wobble on postwar cars too. I actually don't mind the plastic trucks. Tighening them up does improve operation on them, and there's less drag on the train and the overall train "noise" level is a little lower with the plastic trucks.

Of course cars with roller pickups are sometimes another matter. I have found the the spring tension of some of newer roller pickups does warrant adding a little extra weight to keep the cars from "bouncing" off the track, especially over uncoupling tracks and turnouts.

Dave... as you may recall I have dumped on the idea of single motor locos several times here. I'm still furious with Lionel for making the Conrail U36B from 2 years ago with a single motor, so that I absolutely couldn't buy it. To add insult to injury, the UP GP20 from the next year came with 2 motors... go figure? The UP unit was also a nice looking unit with a more complicated paint mask. I cannot figure Lionel's logic on that one for the life of me.

I'm not buying any trains right now. But and if I do, I will not be buying any more Lionel locos until they start putting people before profits, and reissue the Conrail U36B with two motors as it should have been made in the first place. I have never ever been so annoyed with Lionel as I am over that one.... they finally make something in a road name I really want that runs on 027 track, but then do in such a compromised manner that I couldn't buy it. Maybe if the list price had been the same as the single motored RS3 ($79.95) I might have considered it. But given the quality and price from other companies, even that is too much.

But I do add weight to nearly all my locomotives, steam and diesel. It really does improve the operation of them. I have several Industrial Switcher locomotives. They operate now like they never did before out of the box.... and with no traction tires either... I found with the short wheel base of the Industrial Switcher, that the traction tire contributes to stalling.

On the other hand, I've found that with longer diesels with only one motor, even though added weight does help them too, still don't operate as well as they could. The longer center of gravity and the extra drag from the dummy non-motorized truck contribute to this. My Industrial Switchers actually pull more cars with ease than my single motored longer diesel.

[FJ and G]

Brian,

Another good topic you mention for a separate post; reg. the low-quality of 027 stuff.

I soured on Lionel (apologies to Lionel fans) after purchasing the Construction set. But, I suppose all famous brands of any product make cheap crap. Even the famous Delta name in power toolls succumbs to making cheap crappy stuff to keep up w/compeititon.

Companies like 3rd Rail and Atlas tend to put a lot of effort into ALL of their products, not just the high enders. Well, most of 3rd Rail is high end (on the pocketbook).