Everybody loves a dummy!

[daan]

never mind, I think I know what the readings where. It's nice that we know what we talk about with hard evidence..
Thanx for the effort!

[4kitties]

Boy I should've done a preview, it looked fine on the screen before I sent it. Sorry!

[daan]

a small adition: the second engine also has headlights, so the bare engine uses 0.5 amps more than using a dummy (with lights, consuming 0.05 amps each)

[daan]

This is interesting stuff. If you compare what they use for the train it is in the first case 1.62-0.98= 0.64 amps. In the second case 1.25-0.82= 0.43 amps. The first loco needs more wattage to move itself and more wattage to move the train. About half more than the second engine. The train is not the big issue then, but the drivetrain and it's resistance is. Both added unloaded is 1.75, which is a bit less (0.05) than the two apart.
2.20 is the amp reading for both loaded which means they only need 0.45 amps to move the train.
The whole thing seems to be that the motor uses most energy to overcome the drag of it's drivetrain and not to pull the wagons.. The second engine uses 0.6 amps more in this train (compared to the first loco) and I think that that won't be a big subject in using nonpowered or powered units.

[4kitties]

Hey all, sorry to take so long getting back to you on this. Here's what I have:

I measured 2 late-model Williams diesels, both powered. I took measurements with and without a 15-car mixed freight of postwar and modern cars. I held the voltage as close to the same as I could in each run. Obviously, current is in AC amps.

loco 1 loco 2 both
no load loaded no load loaded no load loaded

current 0.98 1.62 0.82 1.25 1.75 2.20

When running the pair with no load, the current was roughly the same as the sum of the individual no-load currents. With a load, the pair drew about 2/3 amp less than the sum of the individual loaded currents. I think the major question we were trying to answer is, how much current does the second unit draw? As you can see above, the answer is the famous "it depends." From my readings, it's sharing the load with the first loco, just like the prototype.

FJ and G, I will re-run the test with my MTH locos that are closest to one another in no-load current and see how things come out. I have both PS1 and PS2 so I will test with both if I can. I may not have a pair of PS1 locos that are geared similarly enough to do the test without them fighting one another.

[yellowducky]

Add one, I have in 027. I'm working at adding a coupler to a #1 gauge steamer, presently.

[Anonymous]

If we are going to go through the trouble of hooking up the two motors, we can easily replace the front wheels with trucks. What fun is railroading if we can tweek?[:)][:D][:)] I think I m going to try it!!
Angelo

[Anonymous]

Use your imagination!! These are toy trains![:D]

[guilfordrr]

How can you doublehead steamers period if there's no friggin' coupler on the front end of most current engines?!?!?

[daan]

In reality, a double-up is needed for climbing a steep gradient or hauling a long train. We don't usually run that long trains that we need a double up, but a steep gradient is an excuse. You'll actually need the double-up to be powered.
I know, double heading trains look better, and under normal circumstances a dummy will do just fine.. I'm curious to the ampreading of the doubleheader versus the single-with-dummy...

[Anonymous]

Dear everyone,
Allow me to share my take on all of this:

I like O Gauge because it is large enough to still have the sounds and feelings of the 1:1 scale ones. Now, about the "dummies," why not just run all powered units (if you can afford to)? Sure, one 2-10-2 pulling a drag up Cajon Pass is nice, but six are even more exciting. Run all powered, and I think it will improve the experience (I wouldn't know--I can't run double headers).

See you around the forums,
Daniel

[Anonymous]

I like the look of a 2-3 engine lash-up at the front of a long freight (10-12 cars). I think it looks more like the trains I see as I travel. I'll admit that they can be hard to find in a lot of road names and/or diesel models.
Bob

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vitabile

Dave:

I've seen some dummies that were pretty steamed in my day, but never a steam dummy. [:D]

Tony

Not Quite. Marx has just come out with some tinplate "steam dummies" for thier own steam locos.[:D]

So a manufacturer has made a dummy for a steamer![:p]

[cnw1995]

Steam dummies. . . It would be interesting to run one as a double-header on a conventionally-controlled lash-up.

[FJ and G]

different gearing won't matter that much if you hook up conventional with conventional and speed control with speed control; just separate those 2 groups. Sure, there will be pushing or pulling but it still can be done without any ill effects; people do it all the time

dav

[Anonymous]

The only problem with doing a lash up with all powered engines is different gearing. None run the same. Anyway, to answer Daan, I don't have the need for several powerted engines. My ONE Lione' SD90 Mac can pull more cars than I own with no problem.

Spankybird: I didn't try that. Thanks. I will give it a shot. Also, Williams returned my call and I wasn't here, so I'll get back to them.

[FJ and G]

4kitties,

Great; looking forward to...but Williams draws a lot less current than locos equipped w/cc; but would be nice anyways.

[4kitties]

I have a 20-amp digital ammeter and I would be most happy to take some readings tonight or this weekend, with a combination of Williams powered and dummy units, and post the results here.

[Anonymous]

I think hooking up two steamer motors is possible. I have the same type of motors in my F3s that I have in my turbine. There are two motors hooked up together in the f3s , so I guess it could be done with the turbine and another behind. Probably look kinda different I guess.
Angelo

[FJ and G]

One other dummy comment. When MTH (or others) sell those expensive dummies, they at least should be equipped with lights and electro-couplers. Sound would be nice as well.

dav

[Jim Duda]

This certainly begs the question - just HOW MUCH current does that second powered loco ACTUALLY pull? Can someone take some ammeter readings with one, then two powered units pulling the SAME train so we have hard data?

JD

[daan]

@Dave, if you make a switchable geartrain inside it, you need to uncouple the wormwheel. A simple, from the outside operatable clutch is a difficult thing when having 2 motors and 2 drivetrains, and probably will make the engines more costly.
If you have 2 powered units pulling a 6 car train or a powered unit pulling 6 cars and a dummy, I don't think that the first combination consumes that much power extra. The only power used extra is to overcome the drag in the drivetrain, the propulsion doesn't consume more than in the second train,because it's load, and therefor it's needed power, is the same.
A train needs f.e. 20 watts to pull it's load, and if that is provided by one engine, or 2 doesn't really matter.. May be you need 25 watts in the first train, because of the friction in the second engine, but that wiil be it.

[Anonymous]

Dave:

I've seen some dummies that were pretty steamed in my day, but never a steam dummy. [:D]

Tony

[FJ and G]

BTW, the idea I mentioned would be esp. good for steam locomotives. When was the last time you saw a steam dummy?

[FJ and G]

I considered buying an MTH dummy, but the price of a 2-motored Williams unit is the same as that for a dummy.

What I need, and perhaps others too? is a clutch or device to disengage the gears and/or power so that a powered unit, like a Williams, can be transformed into a dummy. Why? Because if you are running a long herd of locomotives, they take up a lot of juice and if you could cut power and then disengage the gears, you could have an instant dummy.

I don't know why no one has thought of this idea before. A disengagement device can be made simple and foolproof, IMO.

Dave Vergun

[spankybird]

Hey Jack,
Have you tried using the MTH product locator on thier web site[?]
It will list any dealer in the US that has one in stock.[:D]

tom

[ChiefEagles]

Well, since I got back into the train thing since the middle 80's, the engines are more powerful and there is no need in running three or four powered uits to pull a long train. I have three early 80's U Boats strapped together and one dummy to make an impressive train. Took the powered units to pull the train up a hill to the second level. I got a tow new Williams and I think one will pull as much as the three old U Boats strapped together. I'll be looking matching dummies for these new engines. I hear that the pulling power increase is true for other brands of engines.

[daan]

Why use a dummy when you've got motive power extra? If you buy a dummy, you can use it only in combination with a powered unit, never as standalone. Maybe if you want to drive a A-B-B-A combination F3's or F7's then you can't use 16 driven axles, but B units are, as far as I know, always unpowered..
Dummy's are something non-excisting in European modeltrains. If having a double up, both are powered and pulling.

[Anonymous]

I'm talking about unpowered diesels of course! Lionel sucks at making unpowered units. MTH, K-line, Williams and Atlas are always sold out. What's a guy to do? Dismantle $500 Lionel powered units? Damn! eBay here I come I suppose....What are your thoughts?