What kind of lighting do you use?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

Whether light causes fading depends on the light and the objects exposed to it. Some pigments will fade, some will not. ~ Whether sunlight or fluorescent light will cause your trains and layout to fade depends on what they are made of and would be very hard to predict, I would think.

the rate and degree of fade is probably harder than to figure than them black hole densities[;)]

maybe you know this one Bob...
dont museums and art galleries use tungsten or color corrected halogen filament lamps with UV filters if necessary for thier displays??? and museums and art galleries lights also seem to be dimmed a bit and very red/warm in color.

from my old TV production days i know that any flourescent bulb was no good for lighting for the cameras and even the "kino-flo's" (TV color balanced flourescent tubes) were a touch "spikey" in thier color reproduction. i noticed my mother's lamp shades that have had those new compact flourescent bulbs in them are getting an accelerated/fast aging. my folks moved recently and while packing them we spoiled or broke 3 lamp shades that had the new compact flours in them. removing the shade was too much for it[:0] she has 2 more just like them upstairs near the windows and the are lasting well. (VERY un-scientific, i know but it seemed related to our fading discussion)

i plan to get a few 8' flourescent dual tube fixtures and use them for "work lights" and use tungsten or halogen for train runnin'

[FJ and G]

A guy named Bruce posted on my MR thread some nice photos of his layout. He uses GE bulbs called "Kitchen & Bath."

dav

[lionelsoni]

Whether light causes fading depends on the light and the objects exposed to it. Some pigments will fade, some will not. The shorter (bluer) the wavelength, the more energy per photon and the greater the liklihood that the photon will cause a chemical change in what it hits. Sunlight has lots of short-wavelength light, including ultraviolet, and therefore causes fading of susceptible objects (as well as sunburn and skin cancer). Fluorescent lamps produce visible light by first making ultraviolet light, which then excites the phosphor coating on the inside of the tube to emit visible light. A significant portion of the ultraviolet does get through, however.

Whether sunlight or fluorescent light will cause your trains and layout to fade depends on what they are made of and would be very hard to predict, I would think.

See http://www.nedcc.org/plam3/tleaf24.htm

[FJ and G]

Jack,

I've heard about the fading phenomenon but am not qualified pass judgement on just how much it affects plastic; but anything with UV, unfiltered, will in fact, fade stuff. That's why we can't run our trains in sunlight. Supposedly G-scale stuff has UV protection as, I suppose do, Atlas plastic track ties made for outdoors.

The other concern is that the bluish flourescent (if you get that cold type), will, in fact, make your reds look pinker, a concern esp. if you like running bright red Warbonnets or CB&Q diesels and stuff like that.

dav

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

I read somewhere that the fluorescent lighting will fade the colors on your trains and scenery. Is this true? [?][?][?][?][?][?]

I use track lighting with a dimmer switch and it is outstanding. Visitors are not able to see my mistakes when the lights are low. [:D][:D][:D][:D]

I've heard this before, but I've used them for years and I don't notice anything faded. Maybe in a showcase where the light is right on top of the stuff???? I would think that they would fade you, me and everything in the room and that can't be true. I mean, didn't you all spend like 14 years in SCHOOL ROOMS?? I don't have any faded shirts for example from the lights in school! I think it's just bolgna!

[lionelsoni]

As for dimming, keep in mind that dimming an incandescent lamp makes the already reddish spectrum even redder, since it lowers the filament temperature.

[Anonymous]

i've been looking into getting those small (MR16) halogen fixtures with the UV filters on the lens.
1) i figure they have a new or current "look or style"
2) they produce a nice color spectrum and color reproduction
3) they are easily dimmable and inexpensive (ish) at the home depot or lowes, etc...
4) they get really bright and can be aimed/steered into focus on certain areas of the layout
5) they come in different wattages and beam widths
6) and if the UV filter is any good the paint/color fading wont be accellerated by the lamps.



i think the problem with most flourescent lighting is the choppy frequency/color reproduction. any time you look critically at art or any object under flourescent tubes it never looks perfect to me, it always looks like the reds or greens in the picture or on the choo-choo has been burnt or darkened.

dave v.,
i'm getting a kick out of your topics lately,
thanks!

[lionelsoni]

Actually, the paradox is that the sky should be ablaze with infinite light from those stars, since, although the light from each star decreases as the square of the distance, the number of stars at that distance INCREASES as the square of distance. So each additional light-year of distance should contribute the same amount of light. You have to consider other conditions to explain why it is dark at night, like loss of light when it passes through gaseous nebulae and the finite age of the universe.

[FJ and G]

Wow, Bob, a mouthful. Can you say all that without taking a breath?

What I find esp. fascinating is how starlight, from billions of light years away, is still intense enough to reach us, despite the inverse square law. What we are actually seeing, however, is ancient history. If you could magically fly faster than the speed of light, to a distant planet on a distant galaxy, you could actually look at the earth as it existed a thousand or a million years ago, if your telescope were powerful enough.

dav

[lionelsoni]

Light intensity from an isotropic (symmetrical) point source decreases as the inverse square of distance. Imagine a sphere around the point source. All of the light power reaches the sphere; but any unit area of the sphere receives a fraction of the total light that is inversely proportional to the sphere's surface area, which increases as the square of the sphere's radius, which is the distance from the source. From more than about a foot away, a typical incandescent lamp is, for all practical purposes, a point source and therefore subject to inverse-square behavior.

Light intensity from a line source decreases as the inverse of distance. Imagine a circular cylinder around the line source. All of the light power reaches the cylinder; but any unit area of the cylinder receives a fraction of the total light that is inversely proportional to the cylinder's surface area, which increases in proportion to the cylinder's radius, which is the distance from the source. From about a foot away, a typical fluorescent lamp is, for all practical purposes, a line source and therefore subject to inverse behavior. From a distance much greater than its length, it behaves as a point source, however, and exhibits inverse-square behavior.

Light intensity from a plane source does not decrease with distance. Imagine another plane distant from the source. All of the light power reaches the plane; and any unit area of the plane receives the same fraction of the total light, since the plane's surface area does not change with distance from the source. From about a foot away, a typical 2x4-foot fluorescent troffer is, for all practical purposes, a plane source and therefore produces constant intensity. From a distance much greater than its dimensions, it also behaves as a point source, however, and exhibits inverse-square behavior.

[FJ and G]

Yes, see the posting, Dennis. Nice to have 2 neighboring forums to bounce ideas around on. I also pointed out that the diffusion effect of flourescent lights can similarly be obtained by adding a diffuser over an incandescent light. I use one over my camera fla***o lessen shadows and I installed a diffuser over my shower recessed light, which, incidentally, protects the light apparatus from moisture as well.

dav

[Anonymous]

David, I agree. Light is light. The inverse square law is a physical property of light. The source of the light doesn't change that property.

I also posted this on the MR Forum

In my studio, if I diffuse a hard light source, it spreads the light out and it will not reach as far as the bare instrument. However, if you measure the light intensity from the front of the diffuser( the source), you will find that the inverse square law applies as you move away from this "source."

Dennis Brennan

[FJ and G]

Buckeye,

Excellent question that the MR article (June04) did not address. Also not addressed was why flourescents do not follow the inverse square law of lighting, stated by the author. I don't believe that flourescents can violate that law. Light is light. I'll post something on MR forum.

dave vergun

----------------------------------
OK posted the questions reg. inverse square law as well as possible harm from the flourescent bulbs, esp. being so close to the layout in the lower-shelf lighting pictured in the June04 article.

I'll likely use a mix of lighting: black lighting for night effects and a combo flourescent/incandescent for daylight. The blue florescent and the yellow incandescent, when combined, give a fairly good daylight rendering IMO. In fact, I did this in my pool room. I have a large moon shaped flourescent light in the center of the room surrounded by rotatable recessed lighting (about 8 of these just in the pool room). I rotated the lights so that the beam of light falls on my daughter's paintings. Elsewhere in the basement, the recessed rotating lights shine of the layout under construction.

dav

[Anonymous]

There are flourescent lights that have a color temperature that matches the 3200 degree temperature of professional studio incandescent lighting equipment. However, you can't get these at your local hardware or discount store. you woul have to get them through a company that provides lighting gear for the motion picture industry. Also, they're very expensive at about $13 for a four foot tube. They do fit standard fixtures and in fact I have used them on my layout. These lights work with professional tungsten slide film like Kodak EPT 64 or Fuji 64 tungsten

Dennis Brennan

[Buckeye Riveter]

I read somewhere that the fluorescent lighting will fade the colors on your trains and scenery. Is this true? [?][?][?][?][?][?]

I use track lighting with a dimmer switch and it is outstanding. Visitors are not able to see my mistakes when the lights are low. [:D][:D][:D][:D]

[CNJfan]

I went with fluorescent tubes.
As stated in the past posts, I went with a "warmer" color.
I chose 3000K with a CRI of 85.
I purchased them from http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/
Below is a link to the tubes.

http://lightbulbsdirect.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=001&Product_Code=F32T8%2F8

These are approx. half the cost of buying them locally.
When buying 100 tubes like I needed, that's a BIG savings.
Hope this helps,
Tim C.

[Anonymous]

I use flourescent lighting and I pulled a tube down to see which "SP" rating it was as noted in an ealier post. I saw no SP markings on it. I will have to go to Lowe's or Home Depot and check on that SP35, because I HATE, I mean really HATE the lighting in my train room. Not only does the HUMMMMMM of the lights drive me crazy, I swear that it interferes with the CAB 1's radio signals. I'm not sure, but sometimes when I operate at night with the lights off all my switches react great with the SCII. But during the day, I have to push AUX 1 a bunch of times for some of the switches to respond. Just a bug in the ear for those thinking about lighting.

[FJ and G]

There's an excellent article reg. lighting lower shelves in the June 2004 MR, which arrived in my mailbox yesterday. Incidentally, if I only had one magazine, it would be MR.

Anyway, the author shows photos of an experiment he did with flourescent light spacing. You gotta pick it up to see.

Also in the same article is a nifty Santa Fe double-shelf layout; and the lighting on the upper & lower levels is awesome.

dav

[FJ and G]

Another idea would be to use those airport search lights that rotate 360 deg. Would of course be used for a night scene.

[Anonymous]

If you really want to show the smoke from your engines, strong, point source lighting from an oblique angle (or even full side lighting) will do the trick.

Try this: set up a circle of track on the floor of a sunny room. Run your steamer when the sun is shining strongly through a window on part of the track. Notice the difference in smoke visibility when the train enters the shaft of sunlight.

You might replicate the effect with several small, quartz halogen spotlights, aimed at angles, rather than just using direct overhead lighting. [8D]

I've been thinking about this a lot as I am in the room design stage of my layout.

[FJ and G]

Bob,

Interesting. I've heard of flourescent lights that mimic natural light, called "full-spectrum" and these are used to alleviate SADD (seasonal affect disability disorder), a disease experienced mostly by people in northern latitudes during long winters.

For my lower shelf layout, I will eventually need to install some sort of lighting. I fear that flourescents might damage the plastic. I may try something a bit novel: use the old Lionel tower lights to illuminate select areas of the layout, and simulate a night scene.

dav

[lionelsoni]

Steve is right about there being considerable difference among fluorescent lamps.

Incandescent lamps produce a smooth spectrum. The filament temperature determines the shape of that spectrum, which is stronger at the red end for lower temperatures and shifts toward the blue at higher temperatures. Unfortunately, for incandescent lamps to have a reasonable lifetime, they are designed to run at a low temperature, resulting in light that is reddish compared to the (higher-temperature) sun.

Fluorescent lamps, on the other hand typically have a "spiky" spectrum, with certain colors very strong and others, imperceptably close in hue, weak or absent. Objects that you might illuminate with such a light themselves have "spiky" spectra. The interaction between the two can seriously distort the colors. For example, a fluorescent lamp that produces all its red light at one particular wavelength may look okay; but when it shines on a red object that reflects only red light of a slightly different wavelength, the object appears black, not red.

More expensive fluorescents, made with mixtures of multiple phosphors, can actually do a job about as well as incandescents. The "color rendering index" or CRI tells you how good it is. A CRI of 100 is perfect--but don't expect to find one quite that good.

The color temperature is really another matter. It is difficult to find color temperatures much different from 3000 K in incandescents, except for very short-lived photographic lamps. However, fluorescents can be made to virtually any color temperature by proper selection of phosphors. So a premium multi-phosphor fluorescent can in fact do a better job of simulating daylight than an incandescent.

Here is a excerpt from a General Electric web page:

Specification Series (SP) Colors

Energy-efficient, all-purpose tri-phosphor fluorescent lamp colors that provide good color rendering (as measured by the Color Rendering Index or CRI). The CRI for SP colors is 70 or above and varies by specific lamp type. Available chromaticities (or "tones") within the SP group include:

SP30 (3000K) - a good match for the old standard "warm white" color and incandescent or halogen incandescent lamps.
SP35 (3500K) - neutral all-purpose tone.
SP41 (4100K)- cool in appearance and designed to match to old standard "cool white" color
SP50 - still cooler much like the combination of sun-sky-clouds.
SP65 - A color with a very cool appearance, much like north skylight, and designed to match the appearance of the old "daylight" color.
SP fluorescent colors are available in most of the widely used linear lamp types including the T8, T12, slimline, U-tube, high output and 1500 mA types.

I have used the SP35's in my house, although not in the train room, and find them to be a perfectly acceptable alternative to incandescent. The SP35 white color is not enough different to make a noticeable contrast with nearby incandescents. A higher number might be more desirable in an isolated area, like a train room.

(Notice that a "cooler" light has a higher color temperature, for some perverse reason.)

[Anonymous]

I think the dislike of fluorescent lighting may stem from the color cast the fluorescent light impart to the scene. Typically the lights emit a cool blueish green light vs the reddish orange cast incadesents impart. Remembering back to our science class days if you pass sunlight through a prism the light will be broken into the component colors from warm (red) to violet (cool). Same as a rainbow. The cooler end of the spectrum, blues and greens tends to mute, tone down colors, while the warmer end can lend a friendler more vibrant feel. You can see example of this by going to www.dpreview.com and checking out some of the digital camera reviews. Somewhere in the review they will check out whats called the white balance of the camera and show images of a white background taken under daylight, incadesent and fluoresence light. The color cast will supprise you. The color cast from light is so apparent on film that color slide film manufactured for daylight will readly show the reddish cast if used indoors under incadesenct lights. Color print film can be tweaked during printing to compensate, so you may not have ever noticed this. The flash units in cameras are designed to emit light that mimicks daylight.

I have not tried them but there are fluoresence lights that have been designed to match the daylight color spectrum, also called the color temperature. It may be, the use of these tubes would provide a pleasing layout lighting. The tubes are more expensive than the run of the mill tubes you buy in bulk at the hardware store.

Has anyone tried them???

The human eye -- brain combination tends to automatically compensate for the lighting color cast. In effect we have "automatic white ballance" hardwired into us.

Maybe one of the CTT staff photographers can "shed some more light on this subject"?

Steve

[Big_Boy_4005]

I use fluorescent for general work lighting, but the finished layout will all be lit with incandescent floods and such. More leftovers from the mall.

[prewardude]

I'm with you guys - I DESPISE fluorescent lighting. Incadescents show the true colors much better.

[Anonymous]

I'm with Dav

no fluorescents at all only incandescents

when I first replaced all of the fluors with the incas; all of the train colors were brighter and no longer as washed out; I was surprised at the effect.

Alan

[FJ and G]

I've never heard that question put quite like that. Interesting you asked.

On my last layout, I used tracked halogan lighting. The beams of light really made the smoke stand out well.

I'm of the anti-flourescent movement. Can't stand em. I know they are cheap and cool but I hate them anyway.

For current layout; using incandescents in tilting recessed lighting; installed it all myself. May augment with some halogan lamp light.

For night scenes, black lighting

dav

[Anonymous]

I was wondering today, what lighting do you use to expose smoke more?[:D]

Planing my future layout, was curous about this.[:)]