Rob,
I had the TMCC wrong. Have corrected it, and it now works OK. Thank you. BTW, the post on the TMCC unit actually says "U". I guess that's what threw me off. I have four tranformers. Guess which ones. The exact four that have the backwards A/U posts: TW, 1033, 1044, LW. I wasn't even aware of this until a few days ago. It explains a lot of "weird" things that have happened.
Bob,
The new setup with the SPDT toggles works terrific. Thank you. It makes a lot of sense doing it that way. Yeah, you're right, I forgot to mention that I also had TMCC. At first, it wasn't even working conventional, so I wasn't even thinking of it.
I don't know about TMCC and didn't realize that it was involved here; but from Rob's description, the hookup is pretty simple--just one wire apparently.
The reason I suggested using the TW-D terminal for the turnouts is that the TW is actually two separate transformers in one box, one for trains and one for accessories. That second transformer is just wasted if you don't use it for something like turnouts--not connecting it doesn't give you any more capability on the variable transformer. The accessory transformer is (should be) already wired internally in phase with the train transformer, which is fine. But there would have been a slight benefit if Lionel had wired it out of phase. I'm sure they wanted to minimize the maximum voltage that could be gotten out of the box by doing that.
Bob Nelson
No, I've got the transformers phased correctly. Everything runs correctly until I connect the TMCC. And after reading your statement about the TMCC connection, I betcha I've got it wrong. I can't look at it now, but I'll double-check tonight. Thanks.
LocoPops... as soon as I connect the second transformer to the TMCC unit, I've got problems. Specifically, the conventional engine starts getting signals from the opposite transformer...
The TMCC command base makes its one & only connection to the outside rails - base/common/neutral/return - via the "U" post on the base. With TW & 1033 transformers properly phased, this connection would be to the "A" terminals of both transformers(and can be done literally anywhere on the layout - closest lockon clip 2, switch ground/common binding post, any transformer "A" binding post,.any accessory common/return binding post, eg.). The simple one wire connection of the command base should have no impact on conventional operation.
In all honesty, it still sounds like you have a phasing issue. Although Bob Nelson directed your turnout/switch power connection to the TW "D" connection, I went through the posts and still don't see how you are powering your switches. Also, how is your accessory transformer phased, & what model is it?
Rob
The SPDT switches operate OK. In fact, everything runs OK conventional now.
When I hook up TMCC to both transformers is when I have problems right now. I usually run one TMCC engine and one conventional on each loop. Maybe I shouldn't be doing that(?). But I can run both conventional OK, and I can run with TMCC connected to one transformer. But as soon as I connect the second transformer to the TMCC unit, I've got problems. Specifically, the conventional engine starts getting signals from the opposite transformer.
I'll try your suggestions tonight and see. Thanks.
Let's start with something really basic. Connect the A terminal of one transformer to the outside rails and the U terminal of the same transformer to the center rail of one block, with everything else disconnected. Put a locomotive on that block, and see whether it operates correctly.
If that works, connect the A terminal of the other transformer to the outside rails; but don't connect any other terminals to anything. See whether the locomotive still operates correctly.
Are you sure you know which terminal of your SPDT switches is common? Do you have a picture or can you describe what kind of switch you got, toggle switches or what?
Thanks for reply, but the U and A posts are wired correctly.
Thank you kindly. Will do.
LocoPops Bob,...TW and a 1033... ...I tried wiring the transformers' common posts together, but it seemed to disable the direction/whistle levers.Thanks.
...TW and a 1033...
...I tried wiring the transformers' common posts together, but it seemed to disable the direction/whistle levers.
Thanks.
This is probably because you are putting "U" on the outside rails. For these transformers, you want "U" on the center rail (Lockon clip 1) and "A" on the running rails (Lockon clip 2). "A"'s are common.
1033-A-----TW-A-----all outside rails (except turnout control rails)Block 1 center rail-----SPDT 1 common (probably the center terminal)Block 2 center rail-----SPDT 2 commonBlock 3 center rail-----SPDT 3 commonBlock 4 center rail-----SPDT 4 common1033-U-----one other terminal of each SPDTTW-U-----third terminal of each SPDTTW-D-----each turnout's power plug
I'm using a TW and a 1033. And I've got 4 blocks, each with a SPDT switch. There are six switches: four O-22 and two O-72.
I tried wiring the transformers' common posts together, but it seemed to disable the direction/whistle levers.
All the outside rails (except any turnout or accessory control rails) and the common terminals of all transformers used should all be connected together. The outside rails can simply be left without gaps or insulated pins, or, if you already have gaps, wired together. And the common terminal of each transformer should be connected to those outside rails. It doesn't matter whether you have everything connected to a single terminal somewhere or just connected to whatever other item is closest, as long as all of these items have a connection to each other.
Wire all the turnout power plugs to a single output of any one transformer that produces a suitable voltage. That transformer's common should be connected to the other transformers' commons and to the outside rails, one way or another. If that transformer is used only for turnouts, you will get slightly less voltage drop in the track if it is out of phase with the track-power transformer(s), but it's not very important.
If you want to tell me which transformer type you want to use for each purpose and how many blocks you plan to have, I will try to make you a list of all the connections that you need.
I've got this wired as you described...almost. One question before I finish. You say to "connect all outside rails together...and to the transformer common(s). Do you mean to gather all outside rails together, and then to the common post on EACH of the two transformers?
Oh yeah, the switches. I'm using the fixed power plug for my O-22 and O-72 switches. Do you wire them all to EACH of the two transformers also?
OK, thank you. This is a great help.
The simplest way would be to connect all the outside rails together (if you haven't already) and to the transformer common(s). Then divide the track into blocks with gaps in the center rail. This is probably what you have now. But, rather than connect those center rails directly to the individual transformer outputs, connect each one to the common terminal of a single-pole-double-throw switch. Then connect the other two terminals of each switch to each of the two transformers.
Now you can assign each block to either transformer, so that there is no need to go back and forth between transformers when running all over the layout. I suggest that you also subdivide your loops, creating more than the two blocks you have now. By doing this, you should be able to arrange things so that two trains can swap loops, with part of each loop powered by one transformer, and the other parts powered by the other, while the trains are crossing between loops. Then the blocks can be reassigned to put each loop on its own transformer.
You can actually have as many blocks as you think might be useful at the cost of only one switch per block, still using just the two transformers. And, if you use center-off switches, you can have the option of shutting a block off completely to park a train while you run other trains elsewhere on the layout.
A final touch that I like is to orient the switches left-right rather than up-down, so that the switch handle points left when the left-hand transformer is selected and right for the right-hand transformer (or control on a multi-output transformer).
I would forget about the fuses and use thermal circuit breakers. The ones in the transformers are fine. They allow momentary overloads, which are harmless, but protect the wiring from overheating. To protect any electronics in your trains, use transient voltage suppressors across the track circuits. It is the voltage spikes from derailments and such that damage electronics, not the overcurrent, which flows harmlessly through the short circuit and generates a high-voltage inductive kick at the transformer only when it clears. TVSs are cheap and very effective.
Thanks for the info. I did find the problem. Yeah, my two transformers were phased properly. No problem with them. No. Unfortunately, I've got THREE transformers on the table. I did phase the two I was using for track. But later I swapped one out to use for accessories. Then it took me so long to finish additional wiring, by the time I resumed running trains, I forgot I wasn't running with the two I phased. How my mind wanders! Egads. So I phased the third transformer, and it runs as intended.
But back to your warning about the way I'm running. My aim was to have two loops where I could run (a) one train thru both loops, or (b) 2 trains simultaneously, one on each loop. What would be a better safer way to accomplish this?
ps-I am running the common and variable wires each thru fast-blow fuses, for both transformers. Does that make it any better?
Unless the voltages are set exactly the same, you create a short circuit across some segment of the secondary winding. On Lionel multi-output transformers, the single circuit breaker is generally in series with the common, not with the individual outputs; so there is no overcurrent protection for that connection. Lionel acknowledged this problem only once, to my knowledge, in a fine-print note in the KW service manual.
lionelsoniIn any case, the way you are trying to operate is not a good idea, but it is better than using two outputs from a single transformer.
What is the problem using two outputs from a single transformer? What happens when an engine or other car crosses the insulated joint between the two different loops?
Terry Thomann Fredericksburg, Virginia That is me on the left. My brother got the train TCA 09-64381
Are the outside rails connected together between the loops?
If so, what voltage does your voltmeter read from the center rail of one loop to the center rail of the other?
In any case, the way you are trying to operate is not a good idea, but it is better than using two outputs from a single transformer.
My first opion would be to put a wire to both outside rails of each loop and put it together and see what happens. Your transformers might be fased as it is called but did you put a jumper wire between the common wires of the two transformers?
My other advice is to use either a KW or ZW with at least two outputs for running trains and see what happens then.
Lee F.
I can't wait to hear the answer to this. I am building a similar layout. In my case both loops are powered by a ZW, but two different controllers. Will I have the same problem?
I have an outer loop and an inner loop (tubular). They are connected with two pairs of switches (each pair 022/072). But their power is separated with fiberglass pins. Each loop is connected to its own transformer (1033 and TW). The transformers are phased. They are each set to 14.0 volts, verified with a voltmeter.A train will run the outer loop ok and the inner loop ok. However when it crosses the fiberglass pin separation (to change loops), it sparks and gets a power interrupt. In fact, even a lighted caboose or passenger car will do this.What am I doing wrong?Thanks.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month