Here's the report from Will Allen and me of the meeting Friday.Many thanks to Jon Zahornacky, Rich Mosher, Mike Reagan, and Ernie Emrich for their contributions to our meeting. A special thanks to Rich for bringing the Vision Line prototype (Nickel Plate Road #941 Mallet) to demonstrate and for allowing us to handle the controls to play with it!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1. Lionel’s commitment to the Legacy system?TOTAL COMMITMENT! SOUNDED LIKE LIONEL IS STAKING ITS VISION LINE FUTURE ON LEGACY. 2. Status of next Legacy update?LEGACY VERSION 1.3 WILL BE COMING SOON; DOING FINAL BETA NOW; TARGETED FOR FALL RELEASE. 3. How will we get future updates?LEGACY MODULES WITH UPDATES TO BE MAILED TO EVERYONE WHO REGISTERED THEIR LEGACY SYSTEMS WHEN THEY UPGRADED OR BEFORE. 4. Which issues next update will and won’t be addressed?EVERY KNOWN ISSUE WILL BE ADDRESSED.5. Status of radio signal reception issues (double red flashing lights, etc.)VERSION 1.3 WILL ADDRESS THE RED FLASHING LIGHTS ISSUES. ERNIE TOLD US THAT 2.4 GIGAHERTZ RADIO RECEPTION HAS LIMITATIONS WELL-KNOWN IN THE R. C. AIRPLANE MODEL WORLD. 2.4 GIG IS UNAVOIDABLE BECAUSE IT’S THE ONLY PART OF THE RADIO SPECTRUM AVAILABLE FOR THIS SORT OF USE, & THE FCC STRICTLY LIMITS THE SIGNAL STRENGTH. BUT THERE ARE WAYS TO OPTIMIZE RECEPTION:FIRST, SOLID OBSTRUCTIONS BETWEEN THE BASE & THE REMOTE WILL CANCEL OR DIMINISH THE SIGNAL STRENGTH. SECOND, BEST TO KEEP THE BASE AT ABOUT EYE LEVEL, IF POSSIBLE. THIRD, IF USING AN EXTERNAL ANTENNA LIKE THE HAWKING, ERNIE ADVISED EXPERIMENTING WITH THE HAWKING ANGLE SO AS TO AVOID HAVING THE REMOTE ANTENNA (IN THE HANDHELD) AND THE BASE ANTENNA IN THE SAME PLANE (CANCELS THE SIGNAL).6. Status of battery charging issues?LIONEL IS WORKING ON IT & WILL ADDRESS IT WHEN THEY HAVE A SOLUTION7. What is the function of the very dim icons on the remote? IT’S AN “OFF THE SHELF” DISPLAY WITH MANY ICONS NOT USED.8. Any standardization and optimization of engine and locomotive antennae? EVERY NEW LOCOMOTIVE DESIGN PROTOTYPE GOES THROUGH A TOUGH “GARAGE TEST” (RECEPTION TEST) TO OPTIMIZE RADIO RECEPTION BEFORE GOING INTO PRODUCTION.9. Planned new features to be available in Vision Line products? YES, BUT NONE THAT LIONEL CAN PRESENTLY ANNOUNCE.10.What are black Legacy modules, and how are they to be used? Will we ever be able to save recorded sessions to such a module? THE MODULES ARE STILL IN THE WORKS. WILL BE READ/WRITE. NOT A LOT OF INFO BUT WILL STORE ENTERED INFORMATION. CONTENTS ENTERED INTO THE REMOTE WILL BE ABLE TO BE BACKED UP AS WELL AS ENGINE INFORMATION FOR THE REMOTE. STORING RECORDED SESSIONS IS POSSIBLE (COULD BE DONE NOW), BUT DOES NOT HAVE A HIGH CURRENT PRIORITY.11. Will Legacy ever be able to store more than one recorded session? IT’S NOT IN THE QUEUE, SO PROBABLY NOT ANY TIME SOON. 12. Will there ever be a way to store 5 engines into the 5 keys under the display for one-touch addressing? LIONEL WILL CHECK & LET US KNOW, BUT “TRAIN LINK” KEY WILL SOON ALLOW QUICK TOGGLING BETWEEN ENGINE & ACCESSORIES SUCH AS MOOING CATTLE CAR, HELPER ENGINES, AND SO ON. 13. Status of the Legacy Garage? PERMANENTLY CANCELLED. MIKE SAYS THE MODULES ARE STURDY & SUGGESTED USING PLASTIC BAGS OR TRAYS TO STORE THEM IN.14. New icons on display (if any are coming)? YES, THE ICONS FOR THE SUBWAY, FOR INSTANCE. ALSO FOR SUCH THINGS AS BLOW-DOWN, MARKER LIGHTS, DOG HOUSE LIGHT, AND SO ON. MORE COMING, INCLUDING CRANE CAR CONTROL (PART OF A FUTURE SOFTWARE RELEASE). ACELA, TOO. BUT YOU WOULD NOT GET AN INDIVIDUAL MODULE FOR THE CRANE CAR OR ACELA.15. What is the purpose of the small hole on the backside of the remote just below the top R/H screw? IT’S A RESET BUTTON.16. What is the purpose of the hole in the battery compartment under battery #3? OT FOR THE END USER – FOR DIAGNOSTIC TESTING.17. Will any Legacy features ever cross over to TMCC? PROBABLY NOT, BUT IT’S POSSIBLE.18. Will Legacy eventually replace TMCC in Lionel locomotives equipped with electronic control? IT’S A PRICE POINT ISSUE. AS LEGACY BECOMES CHEAPER, IT MIGHT ONE DAY REPLACE TMCC SIMPLY BECAUSE IT MIGHT BE AS CHEAP TO INSTALL LEGACY IN ENGINES AS TMCC.19. Will we ever be able to address more than 99 engines? IT’S POSSIBLE, YES, AND LIONEL IS WORKING ON 3-DIGIT, OR EVEN 4-DIGIT, ADDRESSING.20. Are Legacy upgrade kits planned? NO.21. Not really a Legacy question, but will there be a fix for the wheel flange problem?THEY ARE WORKING ON ONE, YES.22. Future enhancements, such as miniature CTC and accessory boards? STILL IN THE WORKS, BUT THESE FEATURES DO NOT HAVE A HIGH PRIORITY.23. “Quick Start” reference sheet (maybe 2 pages) to augment Legacy manual?NOTHING IS IN THE WORKS FOR ONE.24. Is there a shorter Legacy manual coming?NO.25. Are there any Vision Line features involving Legacy that you can talk about?YES: VISION LINE FASTRACK SWITCHES – EACH ONE WILL HAVE AN "OUTPUT PORT" TO BE ABLE TO RUN A COMM LINE FROM A SWITCH TO A TMCC ACCESSORY OR SUCH. YOU NO LONGER WILL NEED A HOME RUN WIRE BACK TO BASE. UNFORTUNATELY, AT THIS TIME, THERE’LL BE NO RETROFITS FOR EXISTING SWITCHES.
JonZ also confirmed that in the next release, if you throttle down an engine and then switch to another engine, the first engine will continue to throttle down. Same for throttleing up. If you set a target speed and switch to another engine, the first engine will continue to the target speed. Before the engine would hold at the speed it was at when switched off of until it was addressed again.
Trying to update my avatar since 2020
MartyE and Kodi the Husky Dog! ( 3/31/90-9/28/04 ) www.MartyE.com My O Gauge Web Page and Home of Kodiak Junction!
Thanks MARTY, well done.
laz57
Yeah, Thanks Marty. You and Will have put a lot of work into this. I know that I have only scratched the surface of the Legacy unit. Looking forward to one day getting some Legacy items.
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
Bob Keller
Great Report ! Addresses a lot of questions, Thanks !!
Don
Just FYI we will be holding another in the Fall and all are welcomed. I'll post the announcement near the beginning of October. Hope to see many of you there. Bob and the CTT gang, hope you swing by and say hello. I know you got a booth to run so if not we understand.
In the fall we will have the folks from Lionel address us at 8am so they can get back to the show. At 9am the folks who want to get to the show can leave if they wish and we'll have some more informal discussions til about 10am.
And now the pictures... Our small setup with Legacy engines. Rich Mosher from Lionel answers our questions. Some of the folks that attended. And the other half of the room. Rich took notes and answered question. Ernie was kind enough to volunteer his knowledge on signal issues. Will and Elliot check out the new Vision features. Our mystery guest demonstrates Vision features. Cool effects. It was a fun meeting!
Marty, it was great to meet you and thanks for posting the information. I am a bit disappointed that they do not plan any upgrades for engines to Legacy. Hope that happens down the tracks at some point. Glad that Lionel is out front with the train community and willing to send folks to such gatherings.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
Marty, thanks for the nice report and for helping set up this event, especially for those of us that can't make it to York.
I am a bit disappointed that they do not plan any upgrades for engines to Legacy.
There was a plan to do this when Legacy was first announced and it was demo'd at the Colorado show where Legacy was unveiled (put then pulled for reworking). Locomotives were taken apart and Legacy boards replaced the older TMCC components. The engines were put on the test track and run. My understanding is it was later determined that the newer boards were taxing the older equipment too hard. They may still come up with an upgrade path if it does not involve gutting the loco the way a PS-2 upgrade does?
I do know that the Legacy base and controller allow much better/finer control of all of my original TMCC/Odyssey engines. The absolute speed steps offered by the new controller/comand base made it worth my while, particularly for the Odyssey equipped unit. There are Legacy sound units (e.g. the F-3 B units) for those that want access to the sound system. This may also have contributed to the decision to shelve the Legacy upgrade?
Chuck, thanks for the reply. This does beg the question: What exactly are the benefits of a Legacy engine over a standard TMCC? I ask this out of ignorance, not any alterior motive. I don't currently have my trains running, so can only speculate. From what I gather, the Legacy remote gives a finer control of train speed. I also understand that there is some feedback to the remote and that they have the latest sounds systems, but what else? Would it really be that much of a advantage to upgrade to Legacy on a engine as opposed to just upgrading to TMCC? One area that I think really will benefit from the fine control that Legacy/TMCC offers is in switching manuvers. With the ability to open couplers on command, and making constant direction changes, etc, I suspect this will be where the majority of my operations will be. If we could start a list of advantages that Legacy offers over TMCC, it would help myself and others understand and make decisions regarding the purchase of either Legacy equipped engines, TMCC equipped engines, or just upgrading conventional.
All input is appreciated. (don't want to hijack Marty's thread. If needed, I can post as a seperate one)
Thanks Marty. Good information for those of us who were not at York.
A Legacy equipped loco has much finer low speed control than even Odyssey equipped TMCC engines when used with the CAB-2/Legacy base.
The main upgrade path most folks opted for in the past was conventional to TMCC. There are some aftermarket cruise options but these are relatively new (last few years). Like Odyssey, they can run slowly but not as consistently as do engines designed with/for Legacy and not with the speed step range of Legacy.
I am guessing (based on the comments made during the demo in Colorado) that the original Legacy boards were meant to be drop in compatible with the older TMCC boards. This apparently did not work out (JC's letter regarding the delay of the release of Legacy indicated the Legacy boards were pushing the other electronics harder than anticipated). You probably could make a Legacy kit but I am betting it woulld wind up being like the PS-2 kits, aka gut and replace. When you couple in the issue of sound sets (this is an important part of the Legacy system) I don't see folks paying premium prices for gutting the electronics, generic sounds and second tier performance. If you really, realy want the Legacy sounds/performace you would need to buy Legacy engines.
Keeping my eye on the new system .... just want to make sure it will be upgradeable via download of new functions and sounds as MTH DCS is . Or is Lionel going to GIVE chips to customers if their product is not upgradeable in all aspects ? Are these if available going to be FREE upgrades as their competition does " MTH ? Ready to drop the card down but I don't want burned again as I got burned on a non upgradeable Cab-1 . Are they completely compatible with TMCC engines ... the website really does'nt say . No addons to replace my cab-1 system completely and start using legacy for all my regular tmcc engines . ... correct ?
And what about my williams engines .... can they be ran as i do now .... conventional ? Is there a way to use the whistle function through legacy ... and does the adapter cable system work to link to my MTH ... Z4000 transformer ? Alot of questions ... but need to know . Will my powermaster 180 plug right into it .... I'm talking controller system .... not engines above .... not worried about conversion of present engines .
Will all the yet not released engines be able to have all functions available in the future with it ?
just want to make sure it will be upgradeable via download of new functions and sounds as MTH DCS is .
The base operating system will be upgradeable by inserting modules. Lionel has never made any statements about down loadable sound files for TMCC or Legacy at any point in time over the last 14 years that either system has been available. The down loadable sound files for PS-2 are specific for specific engines as they contail operational information (like speed control) for a specific engine. aka you can not download any sound set into any loco and expect it to work (or at least work properly).
Or is Lionel going to GIVE chips to customers if their product is not upgradeable in all aspects ?
???
Ready to drop the card down but I don't want burned again as I got burned on a non upgradeable Cab-1 .
CAB-1 is 14 years old. Never was claimed to be upgradeable. It can't even access all of the features of the original TMCC?? Again, no one from Lionel (or anyone else for that matter) ever mentioned that the CAB-1 would be upgradeable.
Are they completely compatible with TMCC engines ... the website really does'nt say. No addons to replace my cab-1 system completely and start using legacy for all my regular tmcc engines . ... correct ?
I don't know about the web site but the catalog has the following line in it:
"The Legacy Command Control System, like its predecessor consists of a base and a handheld remote controller. And, as promised, the two systems are totally compatible. In fact you can use the identical keystrokes in running the new remote controller as you did with the old".
Two modifications to this. One, the CAB-1 predates the Command Control System. It can directly control original PowerMasters because they don't use the TMCC command base. They have Citizen Band radio receivers built into them, aka you can run PowerMasters without the command base. The catalog does address this. If you want/need to address PM's you either use the provided wye cable and the original CAB-1/CB or you use the PowerMaster bridge device to handle the radio frequency conversions.
Two, you can access all of your older TMCC loco's the way the CAB-1 does (using relative speed steps) OR you can access them in true TMCC mode with absolute speed steps. This "mode" is user selectable and is one of the main reasons I don't use my CAB-1/Command Base any more. My older trains run much better with the Legacy controller even though they don't have any Legacy specific features.
And what about my Williams engines .... can they be ran as i do now .... conventional ? Is there a way to use the whistle function through legacy ...
Again, I'm not sure what you are asking? If you control the Williams engines now, using whatever TMCC equipment you have, you should be able to control them with the Legacy base/controller. The only caveat is about the PowerMasters (see above). The new ZW and the TPC's can be controlled by the Legacy base without any changes.
and does the adapter cable system work to link to my MTH ... Z4000 transformer ?
Again, not sure what you mean? There are no cables Lionel makes to remotely control anybody's transformers let alone MTH's Z-4000? There is a serial data transmission cable for the TPC's but that's a little different as it's used to control all former IC Controls devices, not just the TPC. Under TMCC/Legacy command mode the power and data communications are completely seperate/disconnected. You can use any power supply that has adequate current and meets the AC voltage requirements.
Will my powermaster 180 plug right into it .... I'm talking controller system .
The command base (Legacy or TMCC) does not plug into any power system for providing power to the track/trains. Both base units have special three prong transformers for powering the base. They have a single antenna wire that is connected from the Command base to the outside rails of the train track on the layout.
Assuming they use TMCC or Legacy command structure/commands, yes. You can actually access commands in all of the older locomotives that you coudn't before unless you were using a computer interface and knew/understood the command language.
Thank you most were answered ...
Ole Timer Thank you most were answered ... no guarantee of the newest engines coming out being able to control all their functions with the current Legacy control system .... no free upgrades for it .... like MTH . Those modules could become numerous and very expensive I presume .... and certainly a customer must pay deal . Thank you .... I'll wait awhile longer .... I don't need a box of modules laying around . No cab-1 was never claimed to be upgradeable ... but was as costly as the extrememly advanced MTH -DCS system ... which did and does work GREAT ! I've seen them in action ... just imagine MTH's new control system .... and you know they'll have one coming out ... my old system is good enough for now ... I'm in no hurry to waste many hundreds of dollars again .
Thank you most were answered ... no guarantee of the newest engines coming out being able to control all their functions with the current Legacy control system .... no free upgrades for it .... like MTH . Those modules could become numerous and very expensive I presume .... and certainly a customer must pay deal . Thank you .... I'll wait awhile longer .... I don't need a box of modules laying around .
No cab-1 was never claimed to be upgradeable ... but was as costly as the extrememly advanced MTH -DCS system ... which did and does work GREAT ! I've seen them in action ... just imagine MTH's new control system .... and you know they'll have one coming out ... my old system is good enough for now ... I'm in no hurry to waste many hundreds of dollars again .
lionroar88For TMCC all you need is the CAB-1, Command Base, and the Modern ZW (Total $550), for DCS you need a transformer, the remote, and the TIU. The Z4000 (comparable to the ZW) is $400, the DCS System is @ $300, total cost $700. So I'm not sure where you get that TMCC costs more than DCS?
Brent, when I started out in TMCC this is how Davis Trains set it up for me:
TMCC Power Master.......$79
Cab 1..................$92
Command Base .........$92
180 Watt Powerhouse (A Brick).............. $100
So they had me running TMCC for 110' of track for about $360 MSRP when I use 2008-2007 prices. It operated my system perfectly. (Incidentally, I did not pay the catalog price for any of the above items.)
Then as the layout expanded to 200', based upon the suggestions of one our esteemed electrical engineers on the CTT forum I added:
TPC 300........$170
and an additional 180 Watt Powerhouse.
With the addition of the TPC 300, the TMCC Power Master was taken out of the system. So the new system for the larger layout has a total cost of approximately $551 MSRP and again I did not pay the catalog prices for the TPC or the new Brick.
I now have an additional CAB 1 so that when the Chief, Wes, Greg, Tom, or Chuck show up on my door step we can each run two trains at once. The CAB 1 has been fairly indestructible. One of them after being stepped on, is being held together with electrical tape.
A lot of people seem to believe that you must purchase a ZW or something similiar to power the system. That is not the case. The TPC or Powermaster can vary power to the track if desired.
Been there, done that.
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
..... Sorry pal .... full disclosure never hurt anyone !
Ole Timer - Not sure where you get this... all you need to add Legacy is the Legacy System if you currently are running TMCC. DCS is not fully compatible with every power source either.You keep posting 'You need to shell out $100s more than just the $$$ for the Legacy System'... this is not true, this is a misconception. If you have proof please provide it, you simply are misinformed on this.
I have the remote for the z-4000 for remote conventional operation and was wondering whether it would interfere ...
Does it interfere now? It runs at 900 mHz band(same as early cordless phones). The CAB-1 runs in the 27mHz band, the new CAB-2 in 2.8 gHz band (same as a wireless internet router). There will be no interference from the Lionel equipment.
and found out my existing 180 watt brick will not work .... which I had to know and many will too .
Your 180 watt brick won't work as what? It's a simple fixed output step down transformer. It either works or it doesn't. It's compatible with DCS as there is no modification to the AC sine wave and it operates within the 180 watt limit per channel that DCS specifies and the max the TIU will accept. BTW, this wasn't a question, it's a statement and one that doesn't seem to be correct based on what little information you have provided regarding this "issue".
There must be all new bricks purchased again if I'm not mistaken
That train left the station a long time ago.
another costly need to have . It all must be added into the cost not in the basic price .
If my opinion upsets you ... don't read it !
Some folks base their opinions on facts and other's base their "facts" on opinions.
Most don't want 3-4 control systems ... a bench full of components and a box of useless components that should have been compatable ... extra $100.00 's of dollars of addons not specified as being needed ........... Sorry pal .... full disclosure never hurt anyone !
What are you talking about? What specific pieces of TMCC equipment do you own? What is it you are trying to do with them?
Questions ... not misconceptions ....
Most of your "questions" aren't. They are statements. Since they are also largely wrong these become the misstatements/misconceptions that you complain about. If you will post questions identifying what equipment you have and what you are trying to do, there are a large number of people on this forum that will be more than willing to help.
If you just like MTH equipment and that's what you like want to use, fine. Just say so and be done with it.
Look maybe I stated it wrong ! I wanted to find out what a complete Legacy system would cost ... EVERYTHING .. including bricks ... addons ... every piece needed to have it all .... give my present system to my son if I could'nt use most of it .... be guaranteed updatieng at no cost ... frequency ranges as to not interfere with my z-4000 remote for remote conventional use ... as far as me getting posts shut down ... lionroar ... your buddy started the argument ... then I see sarcastic posts and get emailed about back door pm's and emails by some . Yea ... I've been notified by folks . It's done ..... I'm done .... as stated found out all I wanted to know .... I was hopeing it would all be compatable without 2 complete lionel systems ... most is ... no I did'nt read every manual and asked here for quicker answers . And contrary to statements made ... those downloadable updates do work great .... maybe the modules work better ... ? Needed to know those modules won't cost money down the line ... could be very expensive . IT'S OVER ..... Adios amigo .....
How about three Post War ZW's [one for each of the two mainlines and one for the sidings] powering Legacy and TMCC command base with two Cab1's and one Cab2. Two 300W TPC's [one for each mainline]. The reason for the two TPC's is so I can run two conventionals separately on the mainlines. Then I can control and vary the speed of each individual engine. Now the three Post war ZW's are over kill but it "floats my boat". So is the two Post War KW's [one powering switches and one powering lights and accessories]. I use to run a 60 foot long layout [old house with full basement] with one KW. Use what you have and then build up as you can afford it. There is no "magic worm to catch the fish".
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
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