Lets clairify free speach once and for all.

[Anonymous]

Reading some of the other posts here, people are compaining about censorship over and over again. It made me wonder so i went to the original owners manual for this country. Here it is in its entirity.

Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now i am no constitutional scholar, but it appears to me that this is a private forum, hosted by a business, and there for does not fall under the "freedom of speach" clause of the constitution. Plain and simple, the GOVERMENT shall not restrict your free speach, says nothing about a private individual or company. WE have a decision to make as consumers as to whether or not we will support censorship. WE vote with our wallet.
I support free speach in all its forms, but in todays litigious society i understand a business need to regualte something that exerts so much influence on what people buy. THe negative posts about MTH have caused me to not buy their products. THat is a powerful tool since i spent well over 6000.00 last year on this hobby. However i have also noticed that when i post a fair review of an item, good and bad, it is never deleted.
Thanks for listening. Bill

[Anonymous]

well said Bill!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Very well put Bill!!! Many people see CYBERSPACE as a free range, where they can do anything and say anything. First amendment and all that. You are right, it's not that way!

We are guests of the businesses that sponsor web sites, and they have rules. What makes THIS site so great and powerful is that with only a few exceptions anything can be discussed.

I realize that the other topic has taken a rather political tone, but there ARE issuses beyond the trains on our layouts that effect us as hobbyists, and in all honesty I don't know where else they can be discussed among an audience as large and diverse as this one here.

See why THIS forum is so great????

[Anonymous]

Bill

I agree you are not a constitutional scholar.

Free speech applies even to private enterprise. A company you work for can not deprive you of your basic civil rights, if you think otherwise you need to read more on civil rights case law.

A private business "operating publicly" can not do as it pleases in this country even though it is not our GOVERNMENT doing the activity. For examples: a private concern can not : discriminate, kill, have slavery, refuse to deal with minorities, and of course redefine and moderate free speech. We the people have to let them do this to us by participating.

The forums I have seen, do not constitute limited private clubs as the internet is public and availiable to all.

Federal supremacy clause of the constitution say Feds rules over states who rule over cities who rule over businesses and individuals.

So are you free to deprive freedom to others? .... well NO.


Alan

[jkerklo]

I think we can agree that forums provided by a company don't exactly fall under the constitutional definition of "free speech:" companies voluntarily provide the forums, for whatever motivation and business purpose, and we contribute to them, for whatever motivation and personal reasons. We all derive some benefit and, perhaps, so does the hobby.

Any of us that have followed these forums for a while have seen topics get out of hand, sometimes to the point of potentially being detrimental to our relationships, or the fourm itself. Some moderation is useful. When and how is a difficult judgement.

The OGR fourm seems to respond quickly, and by deleting posts or topics.

CTT, however, takes, I think, a better approach with a cautionary post, like Bob Keller's recent post on the "OGR, MTH, Kalmbach, and US for ... " topic. Entirely appropriate, and I don't think anyone got too offended: Bob simply made a post, just like anyone else could. I am not aware of any posts being deleted unjustly, although I only follow the toy trains forum, so could be missing some examples.

It might be worthy of note that OGR tags their forum as "Our On-Line Discussion Forum is for anything O Gauge!" while CTT's is "Toy train operating and collecting.
Ask questions, offer tips, post a topic here about toy trains."

The key wording in both is a discussion related to trains.

There has been an implication that OGR polices its forum as a service to its advertisers, deleting anything that may be detrimental to products or company image. If so, then OGR is not following its "anything O-Gauge" promise. I don't think this can be exactly true, however, as any diligence towards this end would ruin the usefulness of a forum, to participants, OGR, and its advertisers. I would hope that vendors to this hobby derive some benefit from these forums as well.

We users of a forum might note that every screen has the forum provider's name and logo at the top. It is sort of like making our comments on their company letterhead. We might respect this and keep our comments about specific products or companies to strict facts. Any opinions might be accompanied by a statement of such. Strong opinions might show a true name, rather than just a handle. Let us stand by what we say.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Anonymous]

AlanHN : You are correct in saying that a company cannot limit your free speach, however they can curb it substantially. I cannot say many things to a person due to race, gender, physical appearence or other.
That being said, your argument hold very little water. The internet is not free, by almost any defintion of the word. It costs money to get on, it costs money to maintain, it is not run by the goverment so therefore it is not protected by the same free speech clauses. Try to sue the OGR forum for censorship and you would be laughed out of court. THere is no inherient right ot say what you want in a business, be it a brick and mortar or a website. I cannot go into a wallmarts and proclaimat the top of my lungs that they suck, i will be arrested for trespassing. Again private property. However i have every right to picket outside the store and say whatever i want. That is protected free speech.
I am not a constitutional scholar, however i am willing to admit that i do not know everything. I have never passed myself off as a expert on anything on this forum or in life. However Alan's opening line tells me that he is a person who would like to be known as a expert, though i doubt he is either. So in the future Alan, keep the snide comments to yourself. Or you will soon find yourself banished from another forum.
Bill

[Big_Boy_4005]

Alan, I understand that you have had some very bad experiences in the past regarding censorship. I think that you have seen that Kalmbach is able to give you a lot more of the "freedom" that you seek, and my hat's off to them for that. This may be as good as it gets in CYBERSPACE!!!

ENJOY IT!!! and use it to do good for the hobby!!!!! I ALWAYS TRY TO!!!! [swg]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ben10ben

My only comment on this subject is that it's Rich's forum, and he can do anything he darn well pleases with it. I may not always agree with what he does, but he has every right to delete any thread he wishes without any reason for deleting this. If you don't believe me, look at the forum rules that you should have agreed to when you registered for the forum. By registering and agreeing to those rules, you waved any and all rights to free speach on the forum, and, if you have a problem with that, you shouldn't have registered in the first place.

I couldn't agree more and he's not alone--check out the following excerpts from these other forum rules: (the emphasis is mine)

Atlas O

...Any user who finds material posted by another user objectionable is encouraged to contact us via email. We are authorized by you to remove or modify any data submitted by you to these forums for any reason we feel constitutes a violation of our policies, whether stated, implied or not.

...In your use of these forums, you agree that you will not post any information which is vulgar, harassing, hateful, threatening, invading of others privacy, politically, religiously, or sexually oriented, or violates any laws.

OGRR

...Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary.

...You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use the O Gauge Railroading On-Line Forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.

...OGR Publishing, Inc. reserves the right to delete any message at any time.

...This forum is for the purpose of discussing O Gauge Trains. By definition, questions about the moderation of this forum are not about O Gauge Trains and will be deleted. Threads posted on the forum with questions about moderation of this forum will be deleted without comment.

Model Train Journal

...While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message.

...You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws...You agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit.

Trains.Com (CTT etc.)

...you agree that you will not upload, post, or otherwise distribute or facilitate distribution of any content including text, communications, software, images, sounds, data, or other information that:
1. is unlawful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, deceptive, fraudulent, invasive of another's privacy, tortuous, contains explicit or graphic descriptions or accounts of sexual acts (including but not limited to sexual language of a violent or threatening nature directed at another individual or group of individuals), or otherwise violates Kalmbach Publishing Company's rules or policies;
2. victimizes, harasses, degrades, or intimidates an individual or group of individuals on the basis of religion, gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, age, or disability;...

.... However, Kalmbach Publishing Company and its agents have the right at their sole discretion to remove any content that, in Kalmbach Publishing Company's judgment, does not comply with the Rules of User Conduct or is otherwise harmful, objectionable, or inaccurate.

[Big_Boy_4005]

You are absolutely correct about the rights reserved by the various forum sponsors, and thank you for posting the side by side comparison. The key here is in how the different sponsors choose to exersise those rights. I don't think anyone here really wants to abuse them or even test them. Some hosts are simply more tolerant than others, and I for one recognize and appreciate that fact.

[eZAK]

That's very Good Dennis B! Every one should read and reread your above post.

[Anonymous]

YAPPITY-YAP-YAP

all i'm getting is clicks and buzzes folks....

are we still talking about trains?

[Kooljock1]

Alan,

A company can't regulate free speech?! Puh-leeze! Try doing what I do for a living!

Not only is my speech "limited", it's recorded, dissected, critiqued, and dissected again! And then they time it, to make sure I'm not talking too much. Believe you me, if I exercised my "free speech" rights here in Burlington, Vermont....and said what I really think...not only would I get fired, but the tattooed, long-haired, birkenstock wearing, dope smoking morons who run this city would set fire to the building!

Point is, there are times when we as individuals and as corporate entities should keep our yaps shut.

As the host of a morning radio show, I'm very much like a board moderator. Only I have full and immediate control over every call to the station during my show. Some make it on, and some just go away...either because they're inane, poorly spoken, or are taking the show where I don't want it to go.

Please don't confuse free speech with the right to be heard. No where in the constitution does it say ANYBODY has to listen to you!

Jon [8D]

[ben10ben]

If you right an article or book, is there any law that says that a publishing company has to accept it? If you write a letter to a newspaper, is there a law that says it has to be published?

View posts on any forum like an article, and you will see that the forum host has every right to accept or reject any of those "articles" without giving you a reason for rejection.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Woodsy, I'm afraid that just shouting stop on a "housekeeping" topic like this doesn't have much effect. This stuff needs to be said and played out in order for it to end. That is the goal!

Train related topics are always available, and you can always create one if you don't see one you like.[swg]

[dougdagrump]

Does the term "Common Sense" mean anything anymore?
I don't believe so when you see the lawsuits that go to court.
P.S. Guess who has a summons for jury duty next week ..............

[macdannyk1]

No, the term Common Sense does NOT mean anything anymore. That's why it says "Caution: HOT" on your coffe cup. :)

[Anonymous]

i suppose big boy 4005 is correct, and i am known for acting first and thinking second in my family...

it just makes me twitch a little (like the chief inspestor in the pink panther) to hear all the constitutional yammering on a toy train forum. i visit 5~6 train forums most weeks and they are ALL talking about OGR and free speech/censorship. nobody has any rights here, INCLUDING ME, except those allowed by the forum masters/owners. the forum is free. not our speech or typing... not here anyway. (or in any web forum) you waived your rights when you agreed to the forum terms (yes, even if you didn't read them)

if the saying "there is no such thing as bad press" is true. OGR did the right thing i think.
i'm gonna keep visiting lots of forums looking for people talking about choo-choos. and next time i promise i'll try harder to talk about trains instead of whatever it is i'm talking about here...

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Woodsy, I too want to get through this issue, and it looks like it's winding down. While we wait for the rest of the gang to view this, there is a little time for humor.

Back to Doug and Dan's remarks about common sense, at least it doesn't say "open other end" on the bottom of pop cans (YET)[swg]

[Anonymous]

Okay

Let's make this clear, contracts you agree to that violate public policy are unenforceable. You can't be held to an agreement to violate the law

It doesn't matter what they say OR what you "agree to" by word or deed in using a forum you can never agree to be deprived of your civil rights. A forum can state anything it chooses, it doesnt make it meaningful.

If the forum says "we reserve the right(what right was that) to kill any users that use the letter "q' without a "u" in a thread, if you use our service." How many think that that contract is any more enforceable than the ridiculous dribble from the forums posted?

Alan

[Anonymous]

And another thing

A thread on OGRR posted(not by me) had a link to one of my posts on this forum;

Guess What... that CTT link was deleted....

How is that action covered by the dribble from OGRR above.??? i guess Melvin felt it was one of the following:

knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.

Do you agree? Or do you think it wa$ about $omething el$e!


Alan

[ben10ben]

Alan,
Would you mind saying the specific thread it linked to?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Alan relax, the point here is that as long as you aren't being rude, your posts shouldn't be touched. This may seem like a leap of faith. I've been watching, and I haven't seen any such action taken against members talking about train stuff, and even some non train stuff. Just because the sponsor reserves the right, doesn't mean he will exercise it.

That crossing was excellent!!! More stuff like that please!!

[eZAK]

An amendment is NOT a law!
Laws enforce and some times weaken the Consitution but it is all for the greater good.

We all have certain guaranteed rights But we can also agree to give up those rights if we choose. Its your choice.

[Anonymous]

I'm with Alan on the thought that i don't want a topic pulled because it may be bad for an advertiser. I want to know it something is wrong with a particular product. I feel it is bad business for Rich to possibly be pulling threads because they contain bad reviews of MTH equipment. I feel that this also dimishes his reviews in OGR about a particular item. I think it was a MTH M-1 not to long ago that had the sand dome installed backward. They just brushed it off. Well that is a major cosmetic flaw with a locomotive. Also it was either OGR or CTT that had a issue in the last year where three of four trains being reviewed did not work out of the box. That is a 75% faliure rate and i want to know who to look for. FOr any review i have ever done i have published both the bad and the good. Example would be a Weaver I-5. Mine had a problem or two out of the box. I identified these but also included how Weaver fixed all the problems in less than a week and it has been error free since.
The only reason i started this thread was simply to inform. Often times too many people think they know something due to a little information or missinformation. Do i need to bring up presidential politics as a prime example. All i want is the truth. Alans experience may be different from Big boys, and totally different from mine. But any average reader, presented with the facts, will see trends and have a better sense of direction on where to go.
Some people have bemoaned the fact that we have discussed the first admendent today. But it was a nice change of pace, and i really enjoyed the conversation. After all how many times can we talk about which F-3 set is better. LOL
I will be starting another train related thread tongiht. Hope you all enjoy it.
Bill

[goodness]

I think I read some where an interesting thought: "Freedom of speach does not allow someone to yell 'FIRE' in a crowded room." There are also interesting laws about "slander" for the spoken word and "libel" for the written word. There are criminal & civil laws, morals, ethics, customs, manners, and many other ways us humans try to define how we should interact with one another. I kind of liked that "common sence" post. But then again people kill each other on a regular basis, so I guess the veneer of civilization is pritty thin. Then there are the metaphysical aspects of the solar eclipse of the moon....makes you think doesn't it.
Paul Goodness

[FJ and G]

Paul,

The Supreme Court has grappled with the free speech issue for as far back as 1919, when the famous "clear and present danger" criteria was invoked, meaning that speech is free as long as it doesn't create a problem for national security or might result in injuries and death domestically.

In 1996, the Supreme Court overruled Congress's attempt to ban pornography from the Internet, with the logic that pornography is available in stores where children are allowed to go (Penthouse, Playboy) and most porn sites contain warnings, meaning that it would be somewhat difficult to "acccidentally" find your way into an XXX site.

Forums too, have been grappling with the free speech issue. For forums like this, it is totally up to the sponsor, who in effect, is the highest court. CTT has chosen a rather liberal course of action, with the risk of an occasional off-topic being outweighed by freer flowing conversations on toy trains, which on another forum, sometimes gets deleted.

For this to continue, IMO, we should encourage CTT forum users to keep up their good postings so that we can continue to have this free privilege.

Dave V.

[Anonymous]

If Rich is truly pulling posts because they might upset an advertiser, then that's clearly wrong. There's a thing called editorial integrity in the journalistic world, and advertisers have to respect it. If they don't like something and threaten to pull their advertising money, then they're just acting like a big thug & that's another reason to boycott their products.

It's worse if a magazine publisher actually succumbs to this pressure, because it means that we, the readers, can't believe anything that is published regarding that advertiser's products. And usually that's something that a journalist is more afraid of than losing advertising dollars.

It seems to me the issue here isn't about free speech, it's about whether or not Rich Melvin & company have any editorial integrity. Having a thread pulled from a forum, to me, is like posting a manifesto on a wall & finding that the wall's owner has ripped the document off the wall & thrown it out. You may have gotten your message out, but it's still his wall.

Now, I personally haven't seen any behavior on Rich's part that I would attribute to a lack of integrity. I'm still willing to beleive that Rich Melvin has editorial integrity. Prove to me he doesn't. So far, no one has.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Ok

I'm done... er well done! and worn down.

I will keep my legal advice off the forum for now.

I really don't care any more about OGRR and Melvin since I not spending a dime of my time putting up any OGRR threads... like I said I'm done!

Please excuse my liberal anti-Bush, free speech rantings that were brought on by listening to too much of AIR AMERICA.

I have so many more parts of my layout I wi***o add to the forum that I have no more time to devote to unimportant forums or their respective moderator-dictators.

So let me blow them all a KISS while I keep shinning my track!
and remember that Speech is not spelled “Speach.”

Alan

[Anonymous]

Alan:

Are you a lawyer?

Tony

[FJ and G]

"I'm with Alan on the thought that i don't want a topic pulled because it may be bad for an advertiser. I want to know it something is wrong with a particular product. I feel it is bad business for Rich to possibly be pulling threads because they contain bad reviews of MTH equipment. I feel that this also dimishes his reviews in OGR about a particular item."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Agree. Rich once said that advertisers never pressured him to pull posts, but that doesn't mean he doesn't pull them to stave bad publicity. No one can answer that question except him. The bottom line is that too many posts--some good; some not so good--do get killed, and speech is limited.

My own opinion is that too many 3-railers criticize each other but yet do not want to be critical of the toy train companies. Toy train companies are, IMO, fair game to criticize. They and their CEOs/Presidents are what are termed "public figures" in journalism parlance and these folks can and should be the topic of commentary.

I encourage you to pick up any newspaper and turn to the OpEd page. Now read what they are saying about your favorite candidate, be he Bush, Nader or Kerry. On the forum, we would call that flaming, but in journalism, it is fair game. (My favorites, however, are the political cartoons).

If you don't read the papers, tune in to Jay Leno and watch his opening monologue.

If we are not allowed to criticize our leaders of government--or business--we will become a totalitarian state. Is that something you want?

dave v.