Milk car problem

[Anonymous]

I just got a lionel milk car set from Dr. Manchu. I was so excited that i took the instructions that he copied for me and set it up.

OK , here is the problem. It will work when I put on on the UCS section, but the man only comes out for a split second dosent and he dosn't put a can out.[V]
Then my circuit breaker goes off and the light shuts off. A short...[:(!][:(!]

So, i took the the retainer clips off and inspected the wires for shorts, nothing, all the bare lead wires hade been covered already by insulator tubing.

HELP!! [:(][:0]

PS: I don't blame Mr.Anders at all, just that things sometimes go wrong[;)]


MY 100TH POST

[Big_Boy_4005]

It may not be a short Jerry. Something is causing too much current to be drawn though. Is there any chance of a jammed can? And what kind of transformer do you have?

Way to go Jerry sorry I didn't notice.[bday]

[Anonymous]

I have a 40watt lionel starter set transformer. no jammed cans, but the cattle car set works on 40 watts. idont know whats wrong. Tv tuner on the solonoid?? it was pretty dry.

[Anonymous]

Happy birthday?!? my birthday isn't until December 30th[:I][;)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Be careful about TV tuner cleaner in there some of that stuff can be conductive. I take it that you have the cover off the car. Try it with no cans.

Happy birthday is the congratulations we use for stars around here, but I think you guessed that already.[;)]

[Anonymous]

i did, the same scenario.[B)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hmmmm, I'm wondering if that transformer may not just be too small for that car. The cows work on a different principle, and may not draw as much. Dang, where's Bob when we need him.

Does the mechanism move freely when you push it with your finger?

[Anonymous]

before i lubed it, no. i put some vaseline on the plate and it moved freely. yeah, i was having zw on the brain after i was troubleshooting. hmmm...

[lionelsoni]

It could be a shorted turn or turns in the solenoid. That would explain why you see a little action before the circuit breaker trips. About the only way to verify this is to replace the solenoid, although you might be able to measure a reduction in the coil's resistance, which you could compare to the resistance of a good solenoid, if someone could measure that. (I can't, since I don't have one of these cars.)

The cleaner won't help the solenoid at all. It is for cleaning switch contacts.

I doubt that the mechanical parts would have any effect on the amount of current drawn.

[Anonymous]

whoa, a dead[xx(] solonoid on a postwar milk car, this is a rarity!!!
how much would you estimate a new one to be?

[Big_Boy_4005]

I would like to think that the good doctor had tested this car before selling it to you Jerry. From the past conversation, and the fact that the cattle car works, I have every reason to believe that he did. But, I'll bet he used a much larger transformer when he did. Why not drop him an email and ask? I'm looking for reasons why it worked for him and not for you.

[lionelsoni]

I don't know, but the part number seems to be 3472-37, if you want to search the web.

I think it would be a good idea first to try a larger transformer, if you can find one, just in case yours is too small. Maybe Manchu will see this thread and have some ideas.

It is entirely possible that a big enough transformer could make a car with a shorted turn operate properly.

[ben10ben]

If this is one of the starter set transformers, the breaker is extremely fast acting.

If the current goes over 3 amps or so, the breaker will trip within a second, and it's entirely possible that your milk car is drawing this much. If I get a chance to tomorrow, I'll measure the current draw on my 3472, as well as try it on a 40 watt starter set transformer.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Jerry, do you have a place with a test track or a friend with a larger transformer that you could take it to and try it, to test this theory?

[Anonymous]

no not in the area. i only have on transformer, the darn 40watt. i guess it isa power problem after all. whew! now ill have to start saving $$$ for a bigger transformer. perhaps a kw would be good? time to go on ebay snd train shows to hunt again!!![:D]

got to go to bed, and read a happy (MTH catologue) bedtime story.

good night[zzz]

[ben10ben]

Just measured, and my 3472 pulls just over 4 amps when activated.

If I remember correctly, the modern Lionel starter set 40 watter is rated at 3 amps, and has an extremely fast acting circuit breaker. 4 amps applied within two seconds would likely cause the breaker to trip. I know that mine would trip if I used too heavy of a hand on the throttle when running the #50 gang car, if that gives you any idea of the current limit.

[Anonymous]

So, the confirmation is recieved, i guess i do need a bigger transformer after all![:D]

I guess ill have to just play with my cattle for now..[;)]

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

Jerry, The [}:)] Doctor is in!!! First: If you had a problem, Why did you not e-mail me!!!!!
As I said on our phone chat, The Milk Car might need a tad more current that your
present transformer can handle. As to testing: I use a LW Transformer for tests. The
KW is the Main Layout power(till I need a ZW). I told you If I can get a good deal on a
bigger transformer, I will pass it along to you. At any rate, I hope you are happy with the
items and if any problems come up, Let me know ASAP!!!! DON'T MAKE ME COME
AFTER YOU!!!!! I have been known to tourture people for less. Till next missive, I Remain The Humble, Yet [}:)] Doctor!!!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Relax Dr, I've got you covered. I figured out the problem, and Ben confirmed my suspicions by testing his milk car. I'm sending Jerry an old "R" which will give him the POWER to get the milk.

GOT JUICE?

[:D][(-D][(-D][(-D][swg]

[Anonymous]

just to be double sure, clean or re-clean the UCS rails and the milk car pickup sliders. i just ran my milker with a 25watt OLD lionel transformer and it worked ok. (the cans didn't come flying out either at 25 watts) about 1 in 3 needed a second push but it was working as well as it usually does (and it gave me an excuse to unpack it and run it again)

good luck,

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The [}:)] Doctor is in!!! Elliot, The Doctor is greatful to you in assisting young master
jerry. His little power pack was not up to the task asked of it. I am still going to find
him a larger transformer(can never have too much power) Because I want to keep a
customer happy!
Untill Next Missive, I Remain The Humble, Yet [}:)] Doctor!!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Doctor, you're quite welcome. Solving problems is what I live for. I could tell right away that behind that [}:)] mask, there really was a good guy. I said to myself, why would you sell him a dud? And I could only come to one conclusion, YOU WOULDN'T!! and you didn't. There must be OTHER[}:)] FORCES AT WORK!!!! Thanks to our friend Ben and his secret laboratory we were able to identify and thwart these forces.[;)]

I just returned from the post office, and that old type "R" is on it's way to our young friend. I suspect that by the weekend we will be hearing reports small silver objects being flung into orbit. [swg]

[Anonymous]

[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

Thats how you know if you have ENOUGH power. Lanching cans, hee,hee,hee[:-,]

3...2...1... BLASTOFF!!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

No Jerry, actually that's Lionel's stuff from the 60's. Rocket launchers, military, exploding box cars, and the like. I was just teasing your little transformer a bit there, about how that "old brute" is going to power up your milk car. Have you seen any of that stuff at shows?? Very silly, but fun!!![swg]

[ben10ben]

Woodsytc,
I think that the reason you old 25 watter could power the milk car is because of the type of breaker(or lack thereof).

The modern Lionel 40 watter has an extremely fast acting electronic circuit breaker that will trip within a second if it goes over the rated amperage even slightly, such as when accelerating the small motor in the #50 gang car.

Many of Lionel's older transformers under 60 amps or so didn't have a breaker at all. The ones that did had what's called a thermal breaker, which relies on the heat generated from the current passing through it to trip when the rated current is exceeded. I believe that if the trip current of a thermal breaker is exceeded by 1/2 amp, it can take is as long as 30 minutes to close. A dead short on your track will often exceed 30 amps, and a 5 amp thermal breaker will take as much as 6 seconds to trip with this much overcurrent. This is probably why your milk car will work on the old 25 watter, as the excess current isn't being drawn long enough to trip the breaker if present.

[ben10ben]

QUOTE: Thanks to our friend Ben and his secret laboratory

Hardly a secret lab, Big Boy

More like the control panel to my secret floor layout with a cheap clamp-on Radio Shack analog ammeter[:)]

[Anonymous]

Looks like your layout is outside Ben.

pax[:O]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Actually Ben, what you have set up there is way more than I have right now. WHATEVER WORKS!!!![tup][tup][bow][swg]

[Anonymous]

ben,
that makes sense, i should have thought of that. the jugs dont fly out at 25 watts either! so... who wants to ask lionel to make a 25 watt 20 ampere transformer[:-^] [(-D]

i went back to check the current draw after reading your previous post and the volts read 12~13 volts and the amp draw was to wild and variable to read (i only have a simpson analog meter) but it was near 6.5~7.5 amps after holding the button for a sec.

seems like a lot of current to me[%-)]

[Anonymous]

YES!!! I just got it today, wired it, and the milk car WORKS!!!!![:D][:D][^][(-D][(-D]

Thank you, Thank you Elliot!!!

This 100wt rocks![8D]