Steel Arch Bridge Question

[FJ and G]

The Hell Gate Bridge is arguably the most famous toy train and real train bridge in the U.S. It is a type of steel arch bridge. For those of you who live in the New York City area, you may have seen the Bayonne Bridge. That too is another type of steel arch bridge but it carries cars instead of trains, unfortunately.

A friend of mine built a scratchbuilt a steel arch structure for his toy trains that looks strikingly like the Bayonne Bridge. I offered my assistance to doing a write-up and wanted to provide some interesting narratives along with the "how-to" aspects.

My question is, has anyone seen or heard of a steel arch bridge similarly designed to the Bayonne Bridge that carries trains and not cars? It would be nice to say that such a prototype exists.

Thanks.

If you're interested in a nice bridge website, go to:

http://pghbridges.com/alldesign.htm

Dave Vergun

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Dave, Trains Magazine did a thing in the January 2004 issue about the most overrated and underrated things in a bunch of catagories. One of the catagories was BRIDGES. It was the one catagory that was left undetermined for both ends of the comparison, though the Hell Gate was mentioned and pictured.[swg]

[FJ and G]

Elliot,

Hell Gate is a he*l or rather a heck of a bridge. My buddy, Gordy, just purchased one. He built a 3-rail set for two kids, who don't have a father. The kids' father was Gordy's XO, when Gordy was a USN captain. The father died of cancer several years ago. He just emailed CTT a photo of the kid playing with trains on a model of that bridge. I'm sure he didn't tell CTT the history but now you know. I told him next time he could borrow my beagle to put in the picture.

dave vergun

[Big_Boy_4005]

I was having a little trouble with your link, what is the Bayonne bridge like?

[FJ and G]

http://www.panynj.gov/tbt/bbmain.HTM

[FJ and G]

Incidentally, I did an article on shipping and rail traffic in the NY/NJ port several years ago for Sea Power magazine. The bayonne bridge, it seems, is an obstruction to some of the larger container vessels that are now plying the oceans. A beauty she is,however.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Speaking of kids Dave, unfortunately, I have to take mine to the dentist now.

That is a rather bittersweet story there.

I'll be back this evening. Later.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Dave, I looked through one of my bridge books and did not see anything that resembles the Bayonne Bridge for railroads.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm back, still having trouble trouble with links, but did manage to find it and look. Oohhhhh, THAT steel arch bridge. It almost acts like a suspension bridge, and for trains, may be too bouncy.

I see how that deck could be getting a little low for modern shipping.

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I'm back, still having trouble trouble with links, but did manage to find it and look. Oohhhhh, THAT steel arch bridge. It almost acts like a suspension bridge, and for trains, may be too bouncy.

I see how that deck could be getting a little low for modern shipping.

Bouncy [?][?][?][?][?]

Excessive Deflection Big Boy, Excessive Deflection.

[Buckeye Riveter]

The railroad bridge downstream of Niagra Falls is a steel arch bridge. I think it is still in operation. The arch in this case is loaded from above through columns to the arch below. An arch bridge takes some special foundation requirements for it to be the most economical for a specific site. The older arch bridges have massive stone abutments to take the vertical and horizontal forces transmitted from the arch.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Buckeye, was the Tacoma Narrows bridge excessive deflection, or does that qualify as bouncy?? I always love watching that clip of that thing flapping in the breeze, with that car on it. [swg]

Nice photo of a couple of cantilevers there. Railroads DO use that style.

By the way, BOUNCY is a technical term used by pedestrians walking across bridges with heavy traffic rushing past. Quite un-nerving really.[:0][:p][:D][;)]

[Anonymous]

The Bayonne Bridge was designed by Othmar Ammann, Lindenthal's primary assistant on the HellGate. The Bayone design does include structural strengthing to accomodate an additional four lanes of traffic and two light rail lines. Details of it's construction are discussed in Darl Rastorfer's book, Six Bridges, the legacy of Othmar Ammann.

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Hey Buckeye, was the Tacoma Narrows bridge excessive deflection, or does that qualify as bouncy?? I always love watching that clip of that thing flapping in the breeze, with that car on it. [swg]

Nice photo of a couple of cantilevers there. Railroads DO use that style.

By the way, BOUNCY is a technical term used by pedestrians walking across bridges with heavy traffic rushing past. Quite un-nerving really.[:0][:p][:D][;)]

Tacoma Narrows failed due to, (your going to like this) excessive harmonic wind induced motion. [:D][:D] It literally tore itself apart. I you visit the Mackinac Bridge you will see how they used grating in the floor to counteract the problem with the wind.

Those are not cantilevers, they are arches. To be a true cantilever they would not be connected in the middle of the bridges but protrude from only one side. The bridge in the foreground is a railroad bridge and the one in background is highway.

As to BOUNCY.....When we do inspections of major bridges using a snooper truck parked on the bridge and you are in the basket hanging over the edge, every truck that goes past makes that basket bouncy. [:D][:D][:D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Buckeye, I've been over the Mackinac bridge a couple of times. Have you seen that episode of Modern Marvles?? They do explain that aspect of the construction, the grating just lets the wind blow through, problem solved. I think they showed the clip of "Galloping Girdy"(sp?) in that episode.

I always thought that the arch, at least in the case of steel and not concrete or stone, was constructed as two cantilevers pinned at the center. I've never seen an asymetrical bridge of that style.

I've seen those bucket trucks doing inspections, boing, boing, boing. NO THANKS![swg]

[FJ and G]

The Tacoma Narrows was not the worst bridge collapse. I believe it was the Tay Bridge Collapse in the UK which resulted in loss of life. So, in 1890, the world's most famous bridge, the Firth of Forth was constructed. Today it remains the most famous train bridge and if you lived in the UK, it would be their Hell Gate for model trains. I shouldn't say this but my friend was a Brit. She said that college girls crossing Firth of Forth had a ritual of tossing their panties off the bridge.

Here is a link to see it:

http://bridgepros.com/projects/FirthofForth/FirthofForth.htm

As to the Bayonne-type steel arch, I've been unsuccessful in finding one that carries bouncy trains on it but it was nice to learn from one of your replies that it was in fact designed to be able to carry light rail if necessary.

As to the Bayonne-type steel arch used on a toy train layout, I suppose it is perfectly a fine thing to do as we have much more creative license than our fellow model railroaders, i.e., if it looks good, incorporate it!

Dave Vergun

[Big_Boy_4005]

I've always loved the Forth railway bridge, but it takes a lot of space to model. I'm not sure why, but I've never felt that strongly about the Hell Gate. There are many intersting examples of railroad bridges.

My local favorite is James J Hill's stone arch bridge, across the Mississippi. The Milwaukee Road's Short Line bridge is another, and is the last of the great Minneapolis railroad bridges still in service. What once served as the gateway for the Hiawatha, now only sees the occasional string of grain hoppers heading to the milling district in South Minneapolis.

[FJ and G]

My all-time favorite is the bridge across the ocean (Flagler's). Some HO dude actually modeled it and several years ago it made MR magazine. Not that lovely, but what a feat of engineering!

My own model railroad patterns the Santa Fe thru the 7 bridges of Abo. However, I'll only be able to fit in 1 or 2 of the smaller ones. Nothing spectacular. Concrete pillers and girders, with some elaborate handrails atop.

I also plan to model a concrete culvert. Culverts are often neglected on model layouts but are much more common than bridges; as well as easier to maintain for small stream crossings.

dav

[Buckeye Riveter]

Big Boy,
A true arch is not pinned at the uppermost point of the arch. If it is, the bridge would be only be able transfer shear forces through the pin and not the bending moment, which wouldn't be that economical. It is certainly possible that someone out there put up a bridge with a pin in the center.

Mackinac is my favorite bridge and I have seen many including the Sunshine, Brooklyn, Golden Gate, Chesapeake, and Natchez Trace. The water is blue and the shore is green. I have seen the bridge from a car, a plane and a boat and it is magnificent in its setting. A winter crossing is interesting because many times the icebreakers are working the straits.

A clarification if I may, almost any type of bridge structure can be designed and built to handle the Cooper's Loading for the railroads. It comes down to economics and the site variables that dictate the type of structure. A suspension bridge could be designed to handle the railroad, but it is probably not that economical when compared to other methods such as a truss with a shorter span length and massive piers. Lightweight passenger trains are different matter entirely when compared to the freights.

[Anonymous]

The only other "over" arch bridge that carries railroad traffic that I am aware of is the Sidney Harbor bridge. There are a number of under arch railway bridges like Stoney Creek (CP Rail Rogers Pass) and the current Niagara railroad crossing.

The open grating on th Mackinac Bridge does contribute to cancelling the galloping gertie effect that destroyed the Tacoma Narrows but the main defense is the stiffening of the bridge road decks by use of truss structures (Mackinac) or other truss and beam structures. This aspect of bridge construction is discussed in Rastorfor's book on Amman and in the "Mighty Mac" by Lawrence Rubin. BTW, the architect of the Mackinac (DB Steinman) was also a Lindenthal protoge and also worked on the HellGate.

This link takes you to cover photo of the Mackinac that shows the trusses:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0814318177.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

This is a link to the official Mackinac Bridge web site which has a very nice photo album and access to a couple of web cams:

http://www.mackinacbridge.org/

[Buckeye Riveter]

Photo of the Mackinac Bridge, May 2003.

The following is an excerpt from the book Might Mac by Lawrence A. Rubin

The Design of the Mackinac Bridge by D. B. Steinman (the designer of the bridge)

The crowning feature in the design of the Mackinac Bridge for ultra-safety is its unprecedented achievement of perfect aerodynamic stability. ......The result has been achieved not by spending millions of dollars to build up the structure in weight and stiffness to resist the effects, but by designing the cross section of the span to eliminate the cause of aerodynamic instability. ................... The basic feature of this high degree of aerodynamic stability is the provisions of wide open spaces between the trusses and the outer edge of the roadway. ........The open areas constitute the scientific design. They eliminate the closed corners which pressure concentrations are produced by the wind, and they also eliminate the solid areas on which such pressure differences would act to produce oscillations in the span..........But I was not satisfied.....For still further perfection of the aerodynamic stability, I provided the equivalent of a wide opening in the middle of the roadway (the grated area)......By this additional feature of aerodynamic design, adding the central opening to the lateral openings previously described, I achieved a further increase in aerodynamic stability and raised the critical wind velocity from 632 miles per hour to a critical wind velocity to infinity!

The bridge was opened in November of 1957 eliminating long lines at the government ferries. I first saw the Mackinac Bridge in 1969, when I rode my bicycle from Northern Indiana to the bridge. We took the ferryboats to the island and then to St. Ignace because bicycles are not allowed on the bridge. If you ever visit Mackinac City at the south end of the bridge, stop in and see the bridge museum on the top floor of the local pizza parlor.

BTW, David Steinman was not an architect, he was a civil engineer.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/mawagner/steinman_early_years.htm

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


I've seen those bucket trucks doing inspections, boing, boing, boing. NO THANKS![swg]

Gee, Big Boy, I'm deeply sadden [:(][:(][:(] that you don't want to help me inspect the bridges on my layout. I thought you would like jumping over the rail onto a rickety platform. BTW, that's me in the red coat with a welding hammer in my hand ready to get the hell off of that piece of junk snooper truck in Ashland, KY about 18 years ago. I sure wished I had a photo of the time that the hydraulic hose broke soaking me with fluid and leaving me stranded. It is good for a laugh or two.[:D][:D]

[eZAK]

While there is probaly is no proto type, her are a few that look close;


http://www.richmangalleries.com/images/Tacony_Palmyra.jpg
http://www.bardaglea.org.uk/bridges/bridge-types/images/sydney-harbour-bridge1.jpg
http://www.bardaglea.org.uk/bridges/bridge-types/images/tynebridge.jpg

Maybe the bridge you have IS a proto type. [;)]

[Anonymous]

DB Steinman held several degrees in several disciplines including mathematics as well as engineering. His titles on the various projects he worked on included chief engineer, structural engineer, assistant engineer, as well as "designer". The "designer" of a bridge is often referred to as the "architect" of the bridge which does not mean that they have a degree in architecture.

[FJ and G]

Chuck,

You win the prize. The Sidney Harbor Bridge is it!

http://www.gids.nl/sydney/info.html

2 railway tracks; appears to be the only other example of a steel arch bridge of its type in the world besides Hell Gate that carries trains!

Very few bridges in New York Harbor carry rail traffic, btw. The George Washington Bridge was supposed to have been a rail bridge but by the time they got to final plans, the auto had clearly won the day.

The only long bridge in NY that carries trains is the Brooklyn Bridge, built in the days when trolleys and subways were the primary means of transports (subways still are, and plans are underway to build a 2nd Ave Line as well as connecting the LI to Grand Cent.

The steel arch bridge, like the Sidney Harbor and Hell Gate IMO are the most beautiful railroad bridges to be found. The reason the arch is above the level of the tracks is to facilitate river traffic below. Steel arches below the tracks are more economical to build where river traffic is nonexistent or small craft.

Whatever type of bridges you like, bridges on model RR pikes are extremely popular; equal or more so than tunnels. Have you ever seen a layout without a bridge?

Modelers use bridges not only to span rivers, highways, gorges, and other tracks; some even use them as duckunders. If anyone is wishing to build a prototypical railroad in which the steel arch bridge never existed, that is one good excuse to incorporate it--as a duckunder.

Dave V.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Chuckn, I have designed, assisted in the design, checked designs, reviewed designs and constructed many a bridge. I have never been designated the "architect" of the bridge and I know of none of my associates who have ever been designated "architect”. The seal that is put on the plans uses the words, "Professional Engineer" most of the time and my seal is on several bridge plans that many of you have driven across as you drive the Ohio Turnpike (Interstate 80/90). My name and registration number is also on the seal.

Maybe in some other country they designate it that way, but I have never heard the term at the International Bridge Conference, ASHE Conference or ASCE Conference. I have never seen the term in print in ENR or other trade magazine. The National Steel Bridge Alliance competition does not designate an “architect” but rather designer. The late Gene Figg who designed the Sunshine Skyway Bridge and other notable award winning structures did not refer to himself as an architect. His last structure, the Maumee Bridge in Toledo, Ohio designates him as the design engineer.

Please provide a reference as to where this term bridge architect has been used in reference to actual design of the bridge. Occasionally, an architect is put on the bridge design team to enhance the aesthetics and lighting for a structure which is about 1% to 5% of the total design.

Yes, Steinman had several degrees other than engineering which is not that uncommon even today.

From the reference I provided about Steinman:
In 1952, Steinman had the idea of designing a suspension bridge across the Straits of Mackinac (pronounced Mackinaw) connecting the upper and lower peninsulas of Michigan. The Straits presented a problem since 1888. People would wait all day for ferry service, and by 1950 thousands of car would wait daily to cross the Straits. However, the Michigan government did not have funds to contract an engineer to do preliminary design, so Steinman agreed to undertake the job on speculation. Steinman became the head engineer of The Mackinac Bridge in 1953. By the time the bridge was complete, it was the longest suspension bridge in the world. While the Golden Gate held the record for the longest suspended span (distance between the towers) the Mackinac's overall span (distance from anchorage to anchorage) was 2000 feet longer! This record belonged to the Mackinac Bridge until the completion of the Akashi Kaikyo Bridge in 1998. Steinman called this bridge "… my crowning achievement-- the consummation of a lifetime dedicated to my chosen profession of bridge engineering" (Petroski 364).

Great bridges were not the only area Steinman excelled in. He was very strong in the Civil Engineering profession. He felt so strongly about it, he was founder and first president of the largest engineering society, The National Society of Professional Engineers. He was also an excellent poet, often writing about bridges, but also discussing various topics of nature. However, he was known for his bridges- all 400 of them.

While this is true, and is the case for any engineer, it takes a certain type of engineer to master the science. Had Amman not been born, someone else would have designed the Verrazano Narrows; had Roebling not been born, someone would have designed the Brooklyn Bridge. But it is the spirit of the engineer, his own aesthetic qualities that make the great bridges what they are. Steinman dedicated his entire life, since boyhood, to the bridge engineering profession. He introduced many firsts into the profession, made a science of wind engineering, developed stronger yet more economical designs, and revolutionized suspension bridges. Now other engineers might have designed the bridges if he didn't, but no one, not any other man, could have contributed so much, or advanced so far, a particular profession as did David Barnard Steinman, and for that reason, he is one of the greatest bridge engineers.