Help! My 601 Seaboard switcher is acting up. It acts like it is stripping gears in forward. It seems to run okay in reverse. I can't see any wear on the gears. Turning the trucks manually forward, it seems okay. It locks up if I try to turn the trucks backwards manually. I don't know if this was the case before the problem arose.
At times, it runs forward okay, but then begins to 'slip' in forward. All my stuff is old and one owner. I used it as a kid 50+ years ago. I thought I greased and lubed everything when it was unpacked back in November, but maybe not.
Do I need professional help, or is there something I can do here?
The problem you describe is caused by the the plastic bearing plate on the bottom of the motor (between the wheels) being loose. If you turn the loco upsidedown while the motor is binding, you can use your finger to press the plate from side to side. You will find that with the plate held to one side it will run well, and when pressed to the other side it will run even worse than when you don't touch the plate.
Lionel recommended using a sharp, pointy punch to dimple the aluminum side of the motor frame to push the plate in the proper direction. I have fixed the problem by slipping a paper matchstick on the appropriate side.
cwburfle,
That doesn't seem to help; it does seem to get worse with the matchstick on the geared (right) side. However, moving to the other side did not fix the problem.
I wonder if it is the brushplate assembly. The small, cylindrical pistons(?) that connect by a wire floating in a slot on top of the 'piston' back to the blue wire and the yellow wire pull into the brushplate assembly in reverse and it runs okay. In forward, these 'pistons' bounce up and down, creating the grinding noise I attributed to gears grinding. This bouncing gets so violent that the wire in the grove sometimes is bounced out of the groove.
What do you think?
Thanks,
Charlie
Charlie,
I think what you describe as "pistons" are the brushes. It sounds to me like the leading edge or edges of the armature's commutator segments are somehow hitting the brushes in the forward rotation of the arm. Maybe a comm segment has somehow lifted?
You'll have to remove the brushplate to take a look. If this is in fact the problem, I think you'll need to find a replacement armature as I'm not sure it could be repaired.
rickoshay Charlie, I think what you describe as "pistons" are the brushes. It sounds to me like the leading edge or edges of the armature's commutator segments are somehow hitting the brushes in the forward rotation of the arm. Maybe a comm segment has somehow lifted? You'll have to remove the brushplate to take a look. If this is in fact the problem, I think you'll need to find a replacement armature as I'm not sure it could be repaired.
Rich......I have seen just what you say, with simply a set of worn brushes. In one direction the worn brushes slide smoothly over the gaps between the commutator plates and the engine runs normally. But when the motor is reversed, the leading brush edge (formerly the trailing brush edge) slightly catches the edge of one or more of each commutator plate. Weak brush springs can accentuate the symptom.
I'd clean out the brush tubes, then swap out the brushes and brush springs with new ones before looking for a slightly lifted commutator plate or looking for another armature or motor. But that's me.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Good advice above. The spacer washers that go on top of the armature shaft may be missing. I'll have to look up the details.
Good point, Jack. It absolutely could be that simple a fix. However, I'd still lift the brushplate & take a look (just the tinkerer in me, I guess).
Okay. I don't see how the spacer washer (thrust collar? in Greenberg's) could be missing - maybe worn out, though.
So, probably, remove the brushplate screw, brushes, and brush springs. Clean and replace as needed, right?
Could this be related to a faulty e-unit? The yellow and blue wires run from the brushes to the e-unit. It seems to be okay now, but was giving me some problems a couple of months ago.
CWBURFLE nailed it down right.
The problem is the lower bearing plate is floating in the stamped aluminum motor side frames as the factory staking has worked loose over the years. This will cause the armature to hop violently and the brushes to jump around in their holders.
The old Lionel fix for this was to "dent" the side frames with a punch, some shops used cardstock jammed in to firm up the plate.
I have had good luck using tiny black anodized self-tapping screws into drilled pilot holes to hold the bearing in place.
For a non-destructive fix, my latest method, though, beats them all. Using the CRC QD or any non-residue contact cleaner, clean ALL oil & residue from between the sideframes & the bearing, using the nozzle to spray into the crevice. Dry it out well, several hours or overnight with a light airflow.
Now use the regular "thin"(not gel) CA adhesive("Super Glue", Eastman 910, etc.) and flow the cement into the crevice on both sides, letting it creep in by capillary action to fill the gap.
In about 10 minutes, the loco is ready to be lubed(grease on gears, oil on pivots & bearings/axles - don't forget to grease the lower armature bushing below the worm) and will run like new.
Rob
Rob, thanks for the tip. I think I'll order new brushes, etc. clean the brush plate assembly & give it a test run; new brushes can't hurt and might help.
If it still acts up, I'll try one of your remedies - or the match stick again as a test.
Hello, one of the washers that goes on top of the armature is called a #600-129 thrust collar. But it is nothing more than a nylon washer. For the 601, the Lionel service manual shows this as the only washer on top. However, the diagram for the pre-1958 200 series alcos, wihich is basically the same motor, except for the coupler mounting, shows two washers. In addition to the 600-129 thrust washer, there is also a CON-8 metal washer. These washers are odd sizes, nothing I have ever been able to find in hardware or industrial supply stores. At one time, I thnk they were rather difficult to find. However, they are currently available from the Train Tender. I usually keep a few of each around, just in case.
yeah, the 600-129 is what I see, too. I ordered one & some brushes, etc. from Olsen's A few other parts, too, for other things.
Among them, a new horn assembly, 601-55. That was corroded from 50 years of a 'C' battery left in. I tried cleaning it, but the horn still doesn't work. I didn't order the horn relay ($40). Do you know of a way to test the relay?
The relay is supposed to operate on 1.1 volts DC. If it operates when you connect the coil to a 1.5-volt dry cell, it's probably okay.
Bob Nelson
Hope you are right. The horn assembly, brushes, etc. should be here soon. I'll let you know if those solve the problems.
Well, I installed new brushes and thrust collar, to no avail. While doing that I noticed the gear in the motor truck is worn. Probably the source of the problem as there was no thrust collar on the shaft. The worm gear on the shaft looks okay.
It's a two magnetic axle truck, No. 601-101. Does anyone know where I can purchase the motor truck complete, or what other parts I might need to order? Olsen's doesn't list this motor truck.
I really like the double magnatraction of this diesel. Apparently, there were only a few thousand made with the two magnetic axle truck. Is there another model truck or truck/motor that would work?
Charlie, when you pulled the worm, was there a bearing ball where it inserted into the truck? Typically they stay stuck in there with the grease and all. Without the ball, your 601 will surely run like crap in one direction. But if it started running like crap where it ran fine before then it's probably there. The tooth ferry doesn't remove bearing balls.
If you want to replace the power truck entirely, MWinterauctions comes up with tons of power trucks on ebay. He's pretty good at testing stuff but you want to make sure it works in both directions.
wyomingscout...Is there another model truck or truck/motor that would work? Thanks, Charlie
...Is there another model truck or truck/motor that would work?
1)601-101
2)621-101
3)614-101(double wound field - will work fine)
4)600-101
5)8354-100
6)627-101 will work with slight modification
Also, 634-101 & 633-101 will fit the frame cutout(but have plastic AAR side frames instead of Blombergs) & 8010-100 (die cast AAR side frames instead of Blombergs).
John, I didn't notice whether there was a ball bearing or not. The engine ran fine until suddenly it started grinding in forward. I guess the whole truck assembly is bad and the ball bearing could be worn as well as the gear. If the entire truck and motor is replaced, a new bearing should be included.
For me, a complete replacement would be the best, but I would hate to lose the two axle magnatraction.
Rob mentioned the part No. 601-101, but it is single axle magnatraction. I'll check out the others he listed, too.
Thanks for the info, every bit helps in looking for repair/replacement parts. I wouldn't have known to check for a ball bearing.
Rob, thanks for the list. The 621-101 is exactly what I need. Do you know of a supplier?
I'll check out the others, too - looking for two axle magnatraction.
I have a few of the post-war center cab locomotives with, essentially, the same motor assembly you have. And I have the same problem with one of them, so I've been following these posts with interest. Re-staking has been suggested to me as the most 'correct' fix, but that requires some way to hold the frame perfectly square through the process. I hadn't heard Rob's suggestion of 'gluing' it to the oil pan, but I can see how that might work.
I've also been considering a new motor truck, just to avoid the time involved with experimentation. Depends on which is more valuable; time or money. If you've reached a conclusion with this (and the dates of your original posts suggests so) please let us know.
Patrick
wyomingscout Rob, thanks for the list. The 621-101 is exactly what I need. Do you know of a supplier?
For complete assemblies, eBay is your best bet.
Restavation...considering a new motor truck, just to avoid the time involved with experimentation...
To find out if the CA glue trick will work, the only experimentation you have to do is to pinch the side frames together with your fingers while the motor is running. Try it in both directions. You will notice that the motor runs like new when the lower bearing/housing is held from moving at all.
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