new member with kids needs to vent and get advice

[CSXJOE]

Hey Chris, not every club doesn't want you. if you can get down here you know you are welcome at ours.

[FJ and G]

Brian,

I have to agree with you. Pricewise and featureswise, you get a lot for what you pay in an RK starter set. That is, if you can tolerate the semi-scaleness and lack of valve gear on some starter steam engines.

I've got 2 MTH starter sets and consider them a real bargain.

Pease,

W/ Lionel you are paying for the brand name. A lot of die-hard Brand L loyalists will buy nothing else.

------------------------------------------------------------------

On a different topic (venting), there was an article in Washington Post regarding Quality and Service and how it slipped so badly in the last several years that the buzzphrase: "The Customer is #1" has quietly been retired. It's not just toy trains folks, it's permeated the entire marketplace.

dave vergun

[brianel027]

Well in all fairness to all importers:

I think MTH has the best quality in the starter set department. Yes, the locos are very well made, but with the Locosound and Speedcontrol comes extra costs. Most Railking sets other than the Dockside are $200. But it's tough to argue against the solid construction of the Railking locos, especially the steamers.

Lionel has the best variety of sets in the widest variety of price ranges. Of course, the GN RS-3 set comes with an all-plastic single motored engine which won't pull much. The Pennsy Flyer and NYC Flyer steam sets are probably the best value. The Lionel 4-4-2 while lacking in detail is a durable engine, smokes decently enough and is easy for kids to fiddle on to the track.

K-Line's starter steamer is a beefier looking loco, but with the worm gear drive is a little harder for kids since it doesn't roll. The smoke unit on those is sub-par compared to the Lionel, but the K-Line steamer is a very smooth runner. K-Line's sets are a little pricier than the Lionel but you do get the 120v transformer. And the Snap Track is at least adaptable to regular 0 tubular. I think K-Line missed an opportunity to re-do the spring activated dump cars by reinforcing the tray tabs on the main frame - they didn't. Those tabs break far too easily. At least the tray is replacable. Once the tabs break on the car main frame... oh well.

To give Lionel some credit, they have improved the $24.95 starter cars. They also change the road name selection with every catalog, as well as expand the selection. It's good to see the Waffle box car and the Hi-Cube in that group! Hope they'll add the older 11-inch 027 passenger car into the lineup.
K-Line and MTH both have better value/lower priced cars (die cast trucks versus plastic) with the Train-19 and Rugged Rails respectively. But both lines have languished since the demise of Industrial Rail (which I think both lines were created to compete with). Most of the Train-19 cars are clones are previous issues (under the "Classic" banner) but there are a few exceptions, and there have been a few new cars in the past couple years.

More specifically to K-Line... yes, they have made some expansion recently. It's be nice to see the "Keystone King" type cars continue to be offered. My guess is the new "Kid's O" is tooling that is from somewhere else, that K-Line is just using. I don't think the battery powered sets help the hobby much. But I'm sure K-Line doesn't have much invested in them, so by offering them, it expands their line a little more. And it does give the potential consumer one more option, such as it is.

IMHO K-Line has always looked for the niche and tried to offer product no one else has done, or has been done recently - and do it at a competitive price point. This is where K-Line has had acclaim. The Heavyweight passenger cars were first. Then came the die-cast intermodal units. Then the scale F-units and GP-38. Then the die-cast hoppers and other cars. The new scale steamers. And all the other scale-sized offerings. It's not just the innovation, but the good price point too.

I think where K-Line goofed on the earlier traditionally sized trains was in offering them in clones of previously made postwar cars. Nearly all the Classic 10-inch box cars are copies of 6464 box cars. I think a little innovation on the road names would have gone a long way. And look at the prices on those cars... man, they are down. I see 'em on ebay for $10-$15. Many times they don't get any bids. The die-hard collectors want the originals of the 6464's, not another company's copies.
When they changed the dies of the Classic box car, they should have modernized it with no roof walk and half-height ladders. A little more quality should have gone into the couplers too. The earlier K-Line couplers have consistantly been an area of complaint. Keeping road name selection fresh and changing is another way to create excitement. The Marx-sized cars were once offered in a six-pack. The roads never changed on those for years. What made Industrial Rail cars exciting was the constant introduction of new names, and the changing of car numbers on previous issued cars... this helps keep people looking and buying. Maybe this didn't work for K-Line. But the obvious emphasis of the older K-Line product line was on the postwar mentality. The last Norfolk Southern or CSX sets were in 1989 and 1990 respectively. A Conrail separate sale MP-15 was last offered in 1990.

K-Line at one time had the best cataloged selection and quality in the area of stater sets. Whether they didn't sell well enough, or just didn't garni***he respect the company was seeking - who knows. I do know when folks first walk into a train shop, they ask for Lionel... that's the name they know. It's after they compare quality and price that the others can make a sale instead. Maybe K-Line figured that it wasn't worth the investment to make starter sets the prime end of the line because of that. They also obviously wanted to expand into the adult market more - all this new tooling still costs money. And many of the new K-Line extras are products from other sources, with the K-Line name slapped on them. In a way, I guess that's a smart move... expand the product offerings with a minimal investment.

The product still needs to be promoted somehow - everyone's product. Sure, there are better prices on-line and mailorder. But ask yourself, how many of us adults would have trains today had we not seen those fabulous display layouts years ago. I know not all shops today have great operating layouts. I've seen some that didn't operate at all - sign on layout saying "out of order."

But for a kid, seeing the trains running on a layout is one of the best tools to sell trains. You don't don't get to see that from a mail order shop, even if you do get the better price. Maybe the shops that have the operating layouts should have the lowest prices on sets. A dealer that goes to the effort to have a nice operating layout, deserves to have the chance to make the sale himself, and make some money with the sale too.

I'm not defending grouchy dealers. But it would make anyone grouchy to stock product for the public only so they can actually see it – then they go home and order it on-line or from an 800 number.

[Anonymous]

Gotta try that pick up line. [:)]

I think that all of the train makers should make an effort to attract new hobbyists. Just like in my line of work. There might be more profit in the big ticket homes that we build but we don't build that many of them. We actually make more money building the smaller homes ("starter" homes) because we can build them faster and we can use a standard plan over again many times without changing much except trim and colors. A big expensive home has to be built to a custom plan and that requires more time and money and work. I think it's like that in all businesses so I would think that it would pay for the train makers to have a nonexpensive line of trains that regular people can afford.

I have looked at a lot of catalogs and I think that MTH and K-Line have Lionel beat both on prices and variety. I love Lionel stuff but I can't afford most of what they make and I don't think that many other people can afford it either. I'll just stick to getting second hand stuff and buying from the other train makers.

[jkerklo]

Good to see someone getting their kids interested in trains. I was once that kid; some suggestions.

Let THEM play with the trains, including hooking up the track and, with instruction, the wiring. I have enjoyed a good career as an engineer and computer programmer, very likely because I played with trains as a kid.

Don't get too upset when something breaks.

Keep the trains on the floor for a while. Maybe with some carpet backing as play area. Building is more fun than watching.

The recommended train shows is a great idea. Not only are there trains there, but there are train people. Most will answer any questions and demonstrate anything.
A train club is even better; more train people. While most are for adults, some have kids activities as well.

I did see a lot of train sets at Hobby Lobby the other day. Prices seemed high, however. I would recommend replacing the transformer, getting compatible track, adding track switches, maybe even manual ones, and operating accessories. Build on what you have, slowly.

My first train was a Marx.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Anonymous]

Toy train guy pickup line...to his date....

"You wanna come back to my place and see my etchings......of my trains?" [:D]

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lehigh Valley Railroad

I am a "kid" myself..

No clubs want me as a member, no other kids in school think its "cool" to like trains, and a major turn off to the girls...

Don't worry Lehigh, later in life the women will stand in line to see your trains. Of course they bring their four kids, but that is a story for another time and place. [:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Actually Lionel has several starter sets that are suitable for children and are very affordable. All of them come with the transformer and a large 40" x 60" oval of FasTrack, and three or more cars. Most come with a "how-to" instructional video. The best prices I've found are at www.hobbystation.net and here are some examples:
Glacier Route Freight Set Retails $149.99 Hobby Station $104
Thomas the Tank Engine Set $149.99 Hobby Station $104
Pennsylvania Flyer Steam Set $179.99 Hobby Station $122
Southern Diesel Freight Set $229.99 Hobby Station $157
Santa Fe Flyer wet w/Railsounds $249.99 Hobby Station $175
New York Central w/Railsounds $249.99 Hobby STation $175
Polar Express Set $249.99 Hobby Station $168

Check it out!

[Anonymous]

We bought my son a Lionel starter kit when he was four years old, which with a little help from me in setting up he loved. He's now eight and we've been working on a 4X8 layout over the past six months. I've done the bulk of the work, but he's been there the whole way sawing, gluing, wiring (and rewirng and rewiring) and working on scenery.

When we tested the track layout he sent the engine flying off the table, so I promptly asked him to step aside so I could show him how it was done and sent the engine soaring thorugh the air. We've never laughed together so hard.

I went to three different local dealers until I found one that I felt comfortable with. Now I feel like a regular at Milepost 38 (www.milepost38trains.com).

One final thought. When we have company or I talk about the layout and train set with friends and associates (mainly male) most of the guys get this misty look in their eyes. They start telling me how when they were kids their dad and them built a layout in the basement or gargage, and how it's one of their fondest memories. Mostly because of the time they spent with their dad.

Enjoy the hobby...don't let a few knuckleheads at local dealers spoil it for you.

Mike

[Anonymous]

Sign up on there website.

Or send in a K-Line warrenty card.

[cnw1995]

BTW, my young children and I have enjoyed browsing the aisles at Hobby Lobby - if you have them in your area - they have an aisle full of model railroading stuff- including loads of K-Line trainsets and track.

[cnw1995]

Wow, that K-Line catalog sounds great. And you say it's free? How can I get one?

[Anonymous]

If you would like a catalog, email me offline and I'll mail you mine, still in the plastic baggie.

[Anonymous]

I agree with most of what is written here, but I feel a few corrections are in order.

I have a nice, brand newK-Line catalog mailed to me on a regular basis and I
DON"T HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. [:D] MDK has been consistently in touch with the
"starter" train world since K-Line's beginnings. I have had the pleasure of knowing
Mr. Klein since the beginning and he IS indeed a "train" person. He began his
company with a hobby retailing background and began his manufacturing to
give the "little guy" the things that the rest of the train builders wouldn't. Namely
decently priced trains with play value and quality.

Having said that, lets look at prices. In the new catalog (2004 First Edition) he opens
with a set (Yes, it's $200) that has a large amount of track for a starter set, a die-
cast metal locomotive, and TWO operating cars, as well as a boxcar and ILLUMIN-
ATED caboose. Not bad!

Farther a long for a little more there is an excellent railroad Construction Set that
has a nice diesel loco, an operating dump car, and tons of play accessories, such
as men, barrels, earth-movers, and a crane car that can be operated by the child-
ren! Yes, it also comes with track and transformer. The other manufacturers don't
include as much for a much higher price to boot!

In the back half of the catalog MDK has not one, not two, but THREE lines of
"starter" trains and rolling stock. ALL priced at ROCK BOTTOM!

First is the line $29.95 a piece
of OPERATING cars which include log and dump cars with accessory vehicles.

Then a few pages later, there is the "Train 19" line of cars featuring two different
types of cabooses (one illuminated), a cargo flat car with figures and vehicle
load, tank car, hoppers in two different road names, and box cars in two different
road names. ALL FOR $19.95 a piece! These pieces can also be run with all
other types of O gauge trains.

If you want something a little more toy-like for the children to play with and not
worry about wear and tear, there is the "Husky Line" of rolling stock featuring a
caboose in THREE different road names, tank cars in FIVE different road names,
box cars in NINE different road names, and an interesting wood-sided gondola
car in FIVE different road names. ALL for ONLY $19.95 a piece again! These cars
are fully compatible with the high-end rolling stock on "Dad's" layout so parents
and children can enjoy model railroading together and children can "grow" in the
hobby as well.

And if $19.95 is too rich for your blood, then try the TWO PAGES of "Keystone
Keepsakes" box cars in 15 DIFFERENT ROAD NAMES for...are you ready for
THIS??? $10.95 a piece!!! Even your son can save his allowance and buy a
car or two! (Remember THOSE old days?)

There is a nice battery-powered starter set for only $39.95 including a loco, 2
freight cars and a caboose. The sets come in TWO different road names. These
are marketed under the name of 'Kids "O" '.

For affordable locos you have the little industrial "critter" switcher in 6 road names
plus a 7th in Coca-Cola logo for $99.95 a piece, or you can get a TWO UNIT
Santa Fe diesel set for $149.95.

That's a pretty well-rounded assortment of "starter" gear as far as I can see.

No...I don't work for or seel K-Line, just wanted to set the record straight and
see maybe a new member or two enter the hobby without going broke!

Brian...

You really need to pick up a K-Line catalog! i was even surprised!

I believe THESE will be the Classic TOY trains of the coming generation!

Hope this all helps a little.

(edited for spelling)

[Kaufu2]

Here is a website with a lot of ideas for layouts, information and just about answers any question you may have about playing with your trains.
http://www.thortrains.net/

[Anonymous]

Hey there, welcome aboard. I'm pretty new myself around here. I have a five-year-old and I know very well the "look" you're talking about. Don't spend a dime in any store that treats you that way.

It's a great idea to teach your kids to repect the sometimes very special and expensive trains they see in a high-end train store. Ask before touching anything. Respect the answer. The store layout should be fair game for proper, parentally supervised operation (unless marked otherwise - but still, do not touch the trains) but by asking one often gets free demonstrations of way-cool, top of the line equipment.

My son's already learned that by being well behaved and by asking the store owner very poiltely he often will get a beautiful $4 or $5 catalog for free and dad gets 5-10% off his (usually small) purchase.

Support your local train store. Trains are for playing.

Old 2037

[pennsy_fan]

kslater, Hi & welcome [#welcome],
Internet is your best bet. Unfortunately, some hobbyshops have forgotten what josh cowen new all along, that kids are the most valuable asset in this hobby, just look at all us adults who were exposed to trains as kids...Here we are continuing to grow the hobby .I think you're right on track (pardon the pun) with playing trains with your kids.The internet is definitely a good alternative to 'snooty' hobby shop clerks.Heres a site with ALOT of good links....www.napanet.net/~jlbaker/

[brianel027]

kslater, where about are you? I'm in Corning and if I can help let me know. There's a very kid-friendly show coming up in Ithaca later this month. Also the big show in Syracuse in November is a very kid-friendly show.

I know exactly what you are talking about. But having been a dealer at one time, I know the other side of the coin real well. Selling trains today is no easy matter. Margins are terrible. There is very little support for small dealers from Lionel - next to none. K-Line and MTH are moderately better. Not to mention the vast majority of trains being made today are aimed at adult buyers (with adult wallets) and priced accordingly.

I could go on this topic for a while... but it's been like this for years, and not likely to change either. Of the big 3 companies, only Mike Wolf of MTH is not only making trains but also REALLY into trains. I doubt any of the top execs at Lionel are. And I know none at K-Line are. Mike gets alot of respect from me, especially now since MTH is the only company doing any serious outreach, even if it is only regional.

kslater, what you are doing is fine. A lot of us buy trains on ebay. Forget the price guide books... ebay is the price guide. And your post shows what I've been saying for years... there IS interest in trains from KIDS TODAY! I've seen it TOO! Lionel wants to blame video games for this – not their pricing and distribution that favors either mailorder places or longtime dealers under their grandfather clause. Or not their list pricing which is still eons higher than everyone else for comparable product – even though eveything is made in China. Or their lack of any kind of outreach advertising or promotion - outside of licensing deals.

Marx Trains are very respectable in my book. There are some decent lower-end Lionel sets made during the 1970's that I see on ebay. And it is very possible to build a small layout on something the size of a hollow-core door or even in a space like 4'x6.' See my post on "Ideas for newcomers." You can do a search for it here using the search option. Also check out this website: www.throtrains.net
There are some wonderful ideas there for layouts in small spaces and some practical info for a beginner like yourself.

This hobby should be for everyone, but it should especially be for the kids. There would be NO hobby today (no TMCC, no scale product, no nothing) if it were not for Lionel's ingenious marketing of years ago - where the trains were aimed at BOTH fathers and sons! Especially the sons! I'm certain the vast majority of today's collectors and operators had trains when they were kids and were even allowed to play with them by themselves!

Now I know some here will say, "geez brianel, you're a little harsh." I doubt anyone from any of the companies shows the cataglogs to folks with kids as much as I do. I constantly promote this hobby. I normally have someone's catalog with me at all times. I wear pins for Lionel and K-Line constantly. And the reaction I hear from folks is nearly always the same... "these trains are overpriced" ... "these trains are aimed at adults" ... "where's the trains for families?"
It's tough when you go through a 100+ page catalog where's there might be 10 pages or less of product that a family with kids could consider. But I do point out those 10 pages and hope that I can make a difference. I know when folks see my layout (I once had a travelling layout too that I took to public events) and the parents are asking lots of questions (esp. the mom's) that's a good sign. And when folks thank me later down the road for my effort and tell me they got a train set for their kid I know my efforts have been worth it.

[Anonymous]

I am a "kid" myself..

No clubs want me as a member, no other kids in school think its "cool" to like trains, and a major turn off to the girls...

[FJ and G]

Nice to have you aboard, my folks are in upstate NY as well (Gloversville). My suggestion would be to visit a club or train show with the kids and see what types of trains catch their attention. Then get a good starter set. If you plan to expand the layout, take a careful look at types of track and try to get the widest curves that you can fit into the space you have.

dav

[SPFan]

Where are you in NY? I have not found that attitude in any of the Western New York shops (Syracuse to Buffalo). There is the occaisional employee who may have other priorities but in general they will be very helpful and if there have layouts will be glad to run trains for you. If you are in this area I can suggest shops that are very kid friendly.
Pete

[Buckeye Riveter]

[#welcome][#welcome][#welcome][#welcome][#welcome]

Glad to have you aboard.

The train shows here in Buckeye Nation has become the place to take the kids. TRAINS.COM has a link to locate train shows on the first pages of this site. http://www.trains.com/community/events/ Also, at a good train show, where the dealer tables are not too high priced, good used engines, cars, buildings, etc. can be readily be found. This last weekend in Springfield, Ohio the show was one of the best for kids. Train displays with animation. [swg] New trains and old trains in abundance.

[ChiefEagles]

Doc, you are preaching to the choir. We agree with you on trains should be available in super stores. Some say they were "raided" when they were in KMart and etc. Well, do them like electronic equipment and guns. Put them in a closed case in an area for you to be waited on by a person. Now on hobby stores. We have a big one and the folks handling trains are real snooty [actually AH's]. Then we have one in a little town close by run by a widow who's store is only open certain hours on certain days. Different story. She is more like an aunt than a store keeper. I have had real sucess with Marty [member of this board] at Ma & Pa's Junction. Call order off of the internet. http://www.mapajunction.com/ I'm sure there are more on here too. Good luck.

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The [}:)] Doctor is in! I can understand your problems with the local store. I have a
good shop in Oakland, CA. that I deal with and am very happy with the service there.
Luck of the draw I guess. As to your transformer/track: Clean the track with a Scotch-
Bright Pad and some GOO-GONE! The transformer is most likley due for replacement
if it is in bad shape. Have you tried going to a Train Show?????? You might find a nice
lot there. Also, The Great American Train Shows have display layouts for kids of all ages. Check the ads in CTT. Last, Find a better dealer, Quick!!!!!
Untill next missive, I remain the humble, yet[}:)] Doctor!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Hi, I am a new member to this forum. I have been browsing through past forums and have read some of the information about attracting children to the hobby. I am 29 live in Upstate NY and have five kids under 9 years old. We have 2 older marx train sets that I bought on ebay and we run them on the floor. When I break out the train sets, all the neighborhood kids and my own want to play with them. Thats what they are for. Here are some of my ideas.
I should not feel like a sub-customer at train shops. At our local shop, I can remember walking in and my son turning on the train in the display (He was around 3 then). If looks could kill.....
If I am in a train shop, seeing how they don't have time for me anyway, they should price the stuff so I don't have to take their valuable time to ask. I guess If you have to ask the price its not in your price range.
As you can tell, I am a little bitter about all this, that is why I buy off of ebay. I feel funny taking any on my kids into a train shop (at least my local store). I wish I could buy O scale train stuff at toys r us or walmart.
Where can you take your kids and see a train display? I found a web site once with names of people willing to show their display but none around me.
My final thought is a question. Our track is pretty old as is our transformer (old marx. shock hazard?). I thought about buying a new transformer and track, our trains run good. And then I was thinking that It would be just a little more money to buy a new train set get the transformer, track and a train. Any ideas?