Like New Condition

[Buckeye Riveter]

Did someone change the definition of "Like New Condition" and I missed the memo? [?][?][?] Check it out. [V][V][V][V]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3185435141&category=4147

[spankybird]

It must be

QUOTE: LIKE NEW

. After all, how can it be used with only one truck on it??? [(-D]

[Anonymous]

My computer screen may not be showing what you guys are seeing, but there appears to be 2 sets of trucks. What else am I missing?

[eZAK]

Buckeye,

You should know by now not to believe everything they say on ebay.
After all have you ever seen any body call their product 'Good' or 'Fair'?

[spankybird]

OK, if it has two sets of trucks, whyt isn't it setting level??


Look at the top of the car and the top of the box.



tom

[Anonymous]

tom,

It is because of the perspective. You are joking, right? You do see that it has 2 sets of trucks?

Bill[%-)][%-)]

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eZAK

Buckeye,

You should know by now not to believe everything they say on ebay.
After all have you ever seen any body call their product 'Good' or 'Fair'?

.
Who said I believed what they said on Ebay?
Fair Condition - Check out this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3184920326&category=4146


Perspective - Why isn't the orange box in the same perspective as the car in front of the box?

[Anonymous]

The back right hand side of the car is closer to the box. It is not flat against the box. Look at the shadow behind the car. You also can't see the coupler on the end of the right hand side of the car because of the angle that it is placed. I know you guys are pulling my leg, right? Very funny.

Bill[:)][:)][:)][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Buckeye Riveter]

Bill is right! [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][tup][tup][tup][yeah][yeah][yeah]
Putting more light on the subject gave us the right answer. I would assume that Bill has his computer screen brightness tuned up higher than either Spanky or me and could see what we couldn't see. I took the photo and enhanced it by adding more light and there are the trucks. Honestly, Bill I could not see the right trucks in the photo.

[spankybird]

By golly, there really is two trucks there. Actually we did see the two trucks, but didn’t think it was at that much of an angle. It did look broken or was it the time change.

But see Buckeye fixed it.

Great job, and it was fun.



tom

[ChiefEagles]

Guys, I've been temped but still a little "leary" of EBay. Wife has bought some collector dishes on EBay with sucess but I'm still not there. We have a Ship On Site store here and they teach EBay classes for free. They say they are good. Gives you all the "ins" and "outs" and hints. Guess I should go. Owner is friend of mine. How sucessful have some of you all been?

[brianel027]

My experience with ebay as well as shows has been pretty good. But it always pays to be an educated and wary consumer.

On ebay I look for photos and look them over carefully. I read descriptions carefully and do email questions if I have them. I've learned to be cautious with the "I'm selling my dad's train collection." This means someone is selling the trains who probably knows nothing about them.

Anything that seems questionable, I just avoid. If they say the item is new and the coupler is jerked off to the side or sort of hanging... it obviously isn't new.

The most overused terms with trains are "Mint" and "Rare." I love it when they say "Rare" and meanwhile there's 6 other of the same identical item for sale at the same time. The Penn Central 9300 dump car is NOT rare. Sorry folks.

Even some of the supposedly rare items, aren't really rare. Take the first issue Vapor Records box car. Sure, there weren't that many made. Yet, despite this I see them for sale on a regular basis. Therefore, it's not rare - regardless of production run. It may be uncommon - but since it is readily availble, I wouldn't even call it that.

On the other hand, there are train items that were made in quantity. But because people buy them and keep them, they DO become hard to find. Even though there may be a lot of them out there. It may not be rare, from a production standpoint. But it certainly could border between rare or uncommon it the item isn't for sale all that much. Demand for the item also affects this. The K-Line Ringling Bros. stuff was certainly available at one time. I saw those things for sale at shops everywhere. Now some of that stuff attracts some serious bidding and prices on ebay... it's not really rare, but it is in demand.

And "Mint" means never out of the box. Period. An engine that has been run "only a couple of hours at the most" is NOT mint. It may be like new, but that's a whole different ballpark as far as price goes. And I don't trust the TCA number after someone's name. Experience has taught me the TCA number means nada. I've seen TCA members tell you something is mint when it isn't. Works when it doesn't. I bought a train car from a TCA member at a show recently. I could see the car had problems, though I was told once I got it on the track it would work fine. I'm glad he knocked the price down... and I took it down some more. BECAUSE the car didn't work as he said. Fortunately I fixed it easily enough. And in the end, I did alright. But as far as honestly, he gets an "F." The TCA number meant nothing.

Or a train set in a Pepsi soda box is hardly the original packing. So wouldn't you say that $250 for the Kickapoo Valley Train Set is a bit high for a set in an open Pepsi box? I think so. Again, a TCA member.

Although I'm not a member of the TCA, I do adhere to their definitions. I would go as far as to say those descriptions aren't nearly tough enough... an item that is dusty or dirty in my book rates as POOR meaning take 50-75% off book price. I'm amazed how many guys want top dollar, yet can't even take a couple minutes to clean something.

The reason is simple: money. Dirt and dust hide defects, which diminish book value. I once bought a car that was dusty and dirty... when I cleaned it, I found it had a bad crack in it and a couple of bad scratches. Had the car been clean, I would have noticed those right off the bat and not bought it. The seller probably knew this too. And again, a TCA member.

I think the price guides should list the Good Condition price first. Not the Mint Condition or New price. The vast majority of trains you will see at a show or on ebay are not NEW and not MINT. Yet when folks consult the price guides, the first price they see is the highest one. They don't bother to knock off the proper percentage in accordance to condition.

The best medicine is to know your trains. It's hard to know everything, so know as much as you can about the trains you are likely to buy and own. If you like the MPC period, learn everything you can about that period of Lionel... become a educated consumer.

Ask questions. Your goal is to become more knowledgable than the seller. Know the availability of parts (at least in general). Have an idea of what it cost to get things serviced if you are unable to do it yourself. Consider what YOUR time is worth to you and if what you want to buy is worth that time to clean it up and fix it.

And for the record, I'm not knocking the TCA. It's a big organization with worthwhile intentions. As an organization, it is a very respectable one. But it is also difficult for any organization to police every single one of it's members. The faults of human nature are not limited to just the TCA. But in my 14 years back in the hobby, I have seen more than a few folks selling trains of questionable condition and price, hiding behind the badge of honesty and integrity with a TCA membership.

It's sad because these folks who do this, not only do a disservice to the TCA, but they also hurt the entire hobby. I wonder how many people looked at that $250 Kickapoo Set and thought, "Gee, $250 for that cheap used set... this hobby is for rich people, not for folks like us." And according to the price guide at that time, that set should have been around $75 to $100 tops.

Or maybe that was a "RARE, MINT condition" issue of that set that really did come in an open Pepsi box???

[Anonymous]

I can answer the questions and comments on this thread.

Trucks (or not)

Yes. The hopper has two trucks. What it DOESN'T have are the wheelsets
in the right hand truck. Just an empty truck frame. Also the truck frame ap-
pears to be detached from the car body which is sitting directly on top of
the truck and not on top of the bolster. DEFINITELY not "Like new"!
Although after reading new product reviews in train magazines nowadays
you might get that impression with all of the lack of quality control...

As for the TCA and valuation of items...Yes again. Brianel has hit it on the
head. A lot of people out there are motivated purely by greed. This has been
an on-going topic of discussion with no real solution in sight. Even I, who
am also a TCA member, have weighed in on this. It is disappointing to see
grown adults act in such a childish, selfish and dishonest manner. I believe
the only way this problem will solve itself is when the members really start
following the TCA mission statement about "...promoting fellowship ..." and
stop running ads in TCA publications stating that "...I have $500,000.00 to
spend this year on train collections..." That's CORRECT! That's a QUOTE of
an ongoing ad that has run repeatedly in the TCA Bulletin and several train
magazines! This puts a damper on "regular people" entering the hobby and
encourages manufacturers to cater to the "money-bags" crowd. I, too, have
gone to York, the "mecca" of train shows and seen common, dirty, broken
items offered at museum-quality prices. These people know EXACTLY what
they have and EXACTLY what they are doing. But until someone starts com-
plaining to the TCA executive staff about trends like this, it will continue un-
abated. Those of you that go to York...just look at the parking lot sometime and
note the sheer number of Mercedes, $40K+ SUV's, $100K+ motorhomes and
personalised license plates of professionals and commercial dealer vehicles.
Then look around and see if you can see that many ordinary families, retirees,
or plain old working-stiffs shelling out exhorbitant prices for yard-sale quality
things.

I have mentioned in other posts that I go to York to "window shop". That's because
I am retired, and when I was working I was a "regular" wage-earner like the
majority of folks and not a 6-figure-a-year guy like the audience that the train ven-
dors cater to today.

On "condition"... When I locate something for a person interested in trains, I
ALWAYS explain IN DETAIL the condition and ALWAYS ask for a CONSERVATIVE
price. I try to promote the hobby to folks who have to put food on the table and
shelter over their heads. I explain to these buyers what the price of the items
are new, what the price is on the "collector" market and then what my price is.
(My price is between 30% and 50% BELOW the comparable prices on the
"collector" market.) I locate pieces that are not always clean and "mint" and re-
hab/clean them and resell them to people looking for a REAL train set that can
be PLAYED with for years to come. I explain to people that despite all that one
sees in flea-markets, auction houses and magazines, you WILL NOT get rich
off of your old train set! I also tell people that it is OK to get the toys scratched
and used. That's what they are made for! I am presently restoring a Post War
Lionel set for a family that actually WANTED to leave most of the scratches and
marks on the loco and pieces because they represent the enjoyable years of
family time between their Dad and themselves. This set now looks extremely
nice, all cleaned, oiled, polished and back in the plain old 50-year-old plain
cardboard box that it has rested in. To this family THAT is the "ORIGINAL" pack-
aging and the wear marks make their set in "ORIGINAL" condition! They wouldn't
take ANY amount of money to sell it. They also wouldn't want pay ANY amount
of money to obliterate the REAL HISTORY of that artifact! BRAVO to them! THAT
is what TCA originally stood for ... back before there was a collector "market" and
train collecting meant fun, operation, and good times. Not "investment", "return",
and "market trends".

We need to get back to basics! As other have said here..."They're just TOYS!"

[lionelsoni]

"What it DOESN'T have are the wheelsets in the right hand truck. Just an empty truck frame." I can see the wheels without much trouble.

"Also the truck frame appears to be detached from the car body which is sitting directly on top of the truck and not on top of the bolster." It looks correct to me.

[Anonymous]

lionelsoni...Yup...went back and looked at the pic. Originally couldn't
make out any wheelsets in the truck. It still looks like the truck is not
properly attached to the hopper on that end, though.

Give 'lionelsoni' 10 points credit.

Award him the newest scale offering from one of the "Big 3".

Subtract 10 points from my account.

Beat me for 10 minutes with an old broken "Scout" loco for punishment.[:D]

[Anonymous]

There are an awful lot of people who have no knowledge of trains that are selling trains on ebay. It can sometimes be very funny to read their descriptions. For example, here are a few quotes that I can remember from actual ebay item descriptions:

"I'm not sure who made this train set, but I think it is Lionel. All of the cars say "American Flyer Lines" on them."

"This train set dates from the 1940's. I'm not sure if it runs or not, but the person I bought it from said that it once did."

"This train is made out of metal, so it's worth a lot of money."

The meaning of the words "rare" and "vintage" are constantly abused on ebay. Also, "Lionel" has been used to describe just about every train you can think of that is made by someone else at least once on ebay.

Generally, though, if you know your stuff, it really doesn't matter anyway because you know what they're selling.

The one thing that really angers me is very bad pictures on ebay or not having a picture at all. The worst is when someone shows a picture of a bunch of trains all thrown into a box everywhich way. You can't see what all there is and it obviously shows that the person is too lazy to actually take it out of the box to take a picture of it. You also wonder how they will ship it.

[brianel027]

"I'm not sure who made this train set, but I think it is Lionel. All of the cars say "American Flyer Lines" on them."

"This train set dates from the 1940's. I'm not sure if it runs or not, but the person I bought it from said that it once did."

"This train is made out of metal, so it's worth a lot of money."

THANK YOU SASK... I got a good laugh. Which is sad, because I know these are not as funny as they are REAL.

We could start a thread with some of the great one-liners used to describe trains.

I saw one a while ago for a Lionel MPC box car car in it's original box... problem was, the box said K-Line on it.

ChesBchRy: you did a pretty good job summing things up too!! Again, the problem isn't with the TCA itself... it's with some of the people who sell trains. I've just learned not to blindly accept the TCA number as a guarantee of accuracy, honesty or quality.

I was talking to this one guy who was selling a lot of older postwar and MPC trains. And we got to talking prices. I told him honestly his prices were high for today's current market and that he'd have a very hard time selling the stuff for what he wanted. And he responded in so many words "but I can't sell these trains for less than I paid for them."

Sad, but that's how it is now, not just for trains but many other items too. In part, it's the overall economy. But with the trains, there's just too many new trains being made. The quality and operating features of the new trains is attracting more buyers away from the older used trains. Only the top condition older pieces still seem to attract any kind of high prices. Even there, I've seen some deals. So many guys got caught up in that "retirement hysteria" of high prices – that their trains would one day yield a fortune to buy that vacation house.

As the old saying goes, better to buy for love than for money. That's especially true today.

And the current importers are putting all their main efforts into driving eachother out of business with more and more top line entries instead of attracting new modelers. I do admire the outreach efforts Mike Wolf is making at MTH to try to attract newcomers. They all should be as much. But they can't afford to make that fatal slip that drives them out of business. Meanwhile the train buyer market is getting older and progressively smaller.

I got a Toys-R-Us flyer with my Sunday paper... no trains mentioned anywhere except for wooden Thomas The Tank trains. Nevermind all the other toy choices and changes in society... simple truth is kids will not ask for something that they don't know is made. The kids look at these flyers. They see lots of other toys, but no trains. They ask and tease for what they see advertised. No surprise that they don't ask for trains.

Maybe the following will be the ads of the future: "Huge train collection. These were grandpa's trains. No one understands how to use them. They haven't been run in years. Many say Lionel on them but no one in the family is interested. We need the space in the garage for the car... Free to anyone with a very large truck who can take all of them."