Do retooling costs hinder variety?

[FJ and G]

Retooling costs, it would seem, hinder variety. Take the common RS-3. Lionel and other companies mass produce these in many roads, often without regards to whether or not a railroad had them. Since I model the Santa Fe, I'll stick to these examples.

The RS-3 is offered in Santa fe, but the only RS models the SF had were RS-1 and RSD 4,5, and 7, but not RS-3. However, to model each of these other RS models would add to retooling costs.

If a company makes the S-1, why would they want to make an S-2? Or, if they make an SDF-40-2, why add an SDFP-45?

Actually a small segment of the hobby does indeed enjoy variety and, furthermore, they are willing to pay a little extra to get it. Atlas and perhaps Weaver seem to offer a greater variety. It's too bad that tooling costs hinder variety from other companies.

Or, could there be something other than retooling costs that are at work here?

dave vergun

[Big_Boy_4005]

It is extremely expensive to make new molds, especially if they are large and full of detail.

How much difference is there on the exterior of the different models? After looking at my diesel spotter's guide, I guess the answer is a lot!!!

So that brings us back to demand for those models. I know that I'm not looking for first generation diesels, but Dave is. So there's one. I wouldn't have known the difference if I hadn't looked. How many more people are out there looking for specific models, that know the difference?

[brianel027]

Well one of the things that's being done I suspect (which has always been done) is to dupilcate a die or mold with modifications. Or to design a particular piece, let's say a steam engine, where the front boiler is a separate piece and so changes or alterations can made made to one section - not the entire die.

This is why when the importers respond to the "Christmas lists" of wants, they go with what seems to be most in demand, and then only make that in what they hope will be the best selling roads.

One must consider that in addition to the tooling/die/mold costs, there's also the cost of the actual production run. And since nearly all production is done in China by what we could call a "contractor" I'm certain the Chinese want a good piece of that cost in advance. Which is probably why the importers themselves want pre-orders and also favor the larger distributors/wholesalers/retailers. You can be sure that places like Charlie Ro, Train Express and Island Trains are taking a very large chunk of any given production run. So they also get the best break on their price too.

The reason the importers can offer all this NEW product is that the tooling/die/production costs are so much cheaper in China. I don't doubt the Chinese are also assisting in the acutal engineering - sending drawings/mock-ups to the US to be approved or have changes made.

It's not necessarily the majority speaking here. I'll bet good money it isn't. It's the vocal minority that goes to YORK and meets the manufacturers. Though it may be that this minority is also spending a disproportionate amount of money on trains. Money talks, and the importers listen. Even here, there's still too many trains.

Let's not kid ourselves folks.... K-Line would have never done that big promotion giving away expensive engines had they been selling better in the first place. Same reason we see the big blowouts - and I suspect will continue to see them - despite the importers trying to control their quantity of production runs. It's not just ONE company... it's several companies all making identical products. How many scale sized GP-38-2's are out there now? Williams, Weaver, Atlas, K-Line, Lionel, MTH all have them. Certainly more than the market can absorb. Meanwhile, hardly any new product for the smaller "027" market – that is eagerly awaiting something for them for a change.

In a way, this is what's wrong with the hobby. The perception that everything is going to be collectible, and hence no kitbashing or scratchbuilding. The Model Railroader magazine has always had a variety of stories on how to modify one engine type into another. The HO guys happily do this kind of thing all the time. On the other hand, it's only been recently that there seems to be some begrudgingly SMALL acceptance of doing this kind of thing with 3-rail trains.

I have a couple diesel handbooks and love looking at real trains too. I'll tell you, when NS took over Conrail, there were some pretty funky rebuilding rolling through my area. And I got to thinking, the real railroads do ANYTHING they can do to make money and save money. So how is it NOT prototypical that I run my train layout the same way?

I do all kinds of little modifications... from adding smokestacks to removing them, to adding radiators or bells or lights. Some might say, that's not prototypical. I say it is. I'm doing as the real railroads do - saving money.

And one more thing as I mentioned before. I really feel a lot of this has to do with the do-or-die competition between the importers to not be outdone. They're going to keep offering the latest scale stuff with new electronics because this is where the PRESTIGE is. One would think if starter set items are selling better, there might be some new product aimed in this direction. I'm sure Lionel, K-Line and others both feel as long as it is selling as is, why risk or tie up precious captial in starter items that don't get much respect from modelers (bleech - toy trains! Oy!!) or the model train press sometimes. But I point to the RMT Beep as one item that is well made, runs on 027 track and seems to not only be getting good press, but brisk sales as well!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Some good points there Brian!

I have a perfect example of the "extra parts" modification. The Lionel GP 7 was turned into a GP 9, by the simple addition of the dynamic break "blisters". I have an early MPC 8030, Illinois Central, GP 9 "convertable". Pop the top, and it's a GP 7, only problem is that it isn't painted underneath, OOPS. [swg]

In the spirit of Brian's comment about York, I guess that if you want to lobby congress, you have to go to Washington DC.[:P]

[brianel027]

And now for the lighter side.
A little fiction:
A Play. Presented by the Not Ready for the CTT Forum Players.
Made possible with generous funding from Viagara. [^]

Bear in mind this is completely fictional, written by novice playwrights and probably couldn't really happen.

Scene One. Maury Klein on the phone with John Brady
[:-,] Maury: Hi John, just wanted to let you know that K-Line is producing a scale-sized GP-700 Dash 21 locomotive with unsurpassed detail. We've had a lot of requests for it, and we're using some new advanced electronics in it that you don't have. Just thought I'd let you know, so you don't decide to make one too. (phone call ends pleasantly)
Jeff: Did you tell him about the opening hood and the headlight arrangement?
Maury: No, just in case they do make one, we'll be the only one's with Whachahootzie®™* Headlight arrangement.

[|(] Brady: Stop everything NOW! I want everyone to start working on a GP-700 Dash 21. This is a top priority. This needs to be better than scale! Let's make ours with an opening hood and the Whachahootzie®™* Headlight arrangement. Call in the spies - I want to know what these advanced electronics are, so we can ru***his into production immediately!! Let's triple the normal production run so we can fill the demand before K-Line gets their version out.

Meanwhile somewhere in Maryland at MTH headquarters....
[(-D] Mike (evil laughter, looking at a production sample): Ha Ha Ha. At last.... the GP-700 Dash 21.... the engine that NO one has ever offered. And with an opening hood and the unusual Whachahootzie®™* Headlight arrangement. This will be the first engine in our new Premiere of the Premiere Line. I want the production run on this one quadrupled. Since no one else will have this model, I want to be able to fill orders when the excitement builds over MTH being the one and ONLY company to have the GP-700 Dash 21.

The end.
Please file out of the theatre in a orderly fashion...
looks like there will be no shortage of GP-700 Dash 21's.
Geez, and they're already cutting prices too. [:D]

*PS: I wonder if anyone realized Union Pacific Railroad is the sole owner of all rights to the Whachahootzie®™ Headlight arrangment.... here come da judge, here come da judge.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Very good! Bravo! Bravo! Will this show be on Broadway in the near future with free tickets for all of us on the CTT forum?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Wow, first video , and now live theater!!!![tup][tup][(-D][(-D][(-D][:P][bow][bow][swg]

[Jim Duda]

...and now, the cast of characters...

Professor Feinberg as Mikey
Brianel as Maury
Buckeye as Brady
Vergun as the dude in the balcony makin' out with the hottie
The Chiefster as the concession stand (fresh vegetables) manager

and last, but not least... Amtrak Jack as the usher.

Can't wait to read the reviews on this one, folks...!

Jim (I love theatre popcorn) Duda

[ChiefEagles]

Elliot, I have boxed up several GP-7's and GP-9's or are they all 7's or areethey all 9's. In other words, The brake blisters pop off and on. [8D]

[Anonymous]

Sequel to above play.......

HAR! I just bought MY GP-700 in Lionel paint mounted on a
tractor-trailer rig from Ready Made Toys! ......and for ONLY
$49.95! (It won't go around 027 curves, though.) It is only
1/2 the length of the scale version, but I got mine FIRST![(-D]

Lionel had just heard about this and issued a "cease-and-desist"
notice from their mega-legal department. TCA refuses to call
this "tinplate" as it is not made of tin and meets NO standards.
K-Line has bought the manufacturing rights to the new "Baby
700" and is creating a special series of cars to go with it in a
new set powered by batteries aimed at the "starter" market. The
new line is to be known as "Midget Movers" and will be compatible
with only the highest priced rolling stock on the market.[:P]
The NMRA writes an editorial in the trade papers for Toy Fair
saying that this loco "...is not to scale due to the fact that the couplers
are not compatible with our standards..."

An anonymouse "collector" buys up all existing "Baby 700" 's and
tries to sell them at York for 5x the book value. Sales are almost
non-existent. They suddenly begin showing up at WalMart and
Toys R Us at blowout prices.

The End.......? Bwaa Haaa Haaa Haa.....

[pennsy_fan]

hey guys,
I was thinking about buying the new lionel 0-6-0 docksider & painting "pennsylvania" over the "reading" moniker.....does anybody know where I can get pennsylvania decals?

[ChiefEagles]

Well, Brian has been helping me with finding NS decals. I use to do a lot of the samething Brian does in modifying engines and rolling stock. I have a whole stable full of CN engines and rolling stock when the only Lionel CN was the GP-7/9. I painted [orange noses and slach stripes on black bodies] all my engine shells and decaled them. I bought the cheapest road name [as some are not popular and are discounted] of big engines and rolling stock, repainted and decaled. I even had the rolling stock with one side Canadian National and the other side Canadien National. Even decaled the numbers different on all. Had fun doing it. Now it will all be converted to NS. In the future, I'll buy some discounted "stuff" and rework. That is the way you have to do this hobby if you want a special road line. Its fun to me and looks really good.

[Anonymous]

K-Line has modified the Berkshire tooling to make the models with the coffin heater. This will prevent them from remaking the prior models. That's a viable approach to those modelers that are willing to pay a little extra for scale models.

My models don't have to be exactly to scale, but I don't like features that were not universal on a model where it doesn't belong. Examples would be a PA type Belpaire firebox on a UP 0-6-0 switcher. Other examples are MTH porthole baggage car windows on SF baggage car and extended ends on UP 2-bay hoppers.

[FJ and G]

Some real creative characters on this forum!

Brian,

I'm actually converting my own RS-3 to an RS-1. Moving the stack is one of the modifications to make, and is the most noticeable. The problem for many comes with modifying trucks, which are a bit more difficult. Interestingly, some models that were shopped kept their trucks and others switched them out.

In the 80s when journal boxes were outlawed, there must have been a lot of switching going on to the roller bearings. I still recall the hot boxes with the gunk inside.

There does seem to be a predominance of 3-railers, with thick wallets, who prefer to purchase out of box rather than make modifications. As more and more types of locomotives get produced and as we begin to run out of never-before-produced models, then I foresee more of these obscure models coming off the assembly line, and yes, as soon as K-Line or MTH comes out with one, the "spies" will already be at work in the other companies to produce an exact duplicate model.

Pennsy Fan,

One suggestion would be to get blank decal paper that can go thru a laser printer. Find the decal on the Internet or make one in Photoshop, then print it out on the laser printer.

If you don't have a laser printer or photo shop, perhaps Kinkos or someone does.

Dave Vergun

[brianel027]

Alright guys, back to being serious. In reference to my above YORK comment, from page 37 of the Feb. 2003 issue of OGR: "A very vocal group of hobbiests persuaded Atlas O to introduce this rail, but demand has not matched expectations. Production will continue with the pieces originally offered, but no new ones will be introduced."

This quote was in reference to Atlas O track with solid silver rail that work better with MagneTraction. As I see this, once again, a minority viewpoint has altered what product gets introduced.

Now in reference to the new issue of CTT, I thought the editorial by Neil Besougloff was entertaining BUT also a sign of the times. Many of us seasoned train buyers already have more than enough stuff on our layouts. We have more than enough trains already. This has been talked about before. I would think this would be setting off alarm bells with the importers to start very seriously looking at ways to grow the market. Which means introducing product that isn't necessarily top line scale sized and loaded with details. I don't think it will happen. Actually I think the planned business course for everyone is to hope that someone else goes out of business real soon. Good plan.

Even the Lionel ad in the current CTT on page 45 for FasTrack is a sign of the wrong direction being taken... if FasTrack was indeed intended for starter sets and beginning modelers, why the Sam Hill isn't it being offered in TIGHTER radius curves. There have been request right here on this Forum to see at 27 inch FasTrack curve. Even a 30 inch would be good. At least modelers would be able to have something other than a simple oval on a 4'x8' layout. Or maybe once again, this is a case of the vocal minority saying they want more FasTrack offered for prototypical layouts. As if someone would rip up their Atlas O track to replace it with FasTrack??? Anyone here planning that move???

Now check out page 24 of the new CTT: the conversation with Joe Hayter of Weaver. He says "Keep in mind the casting of the locomotive isn't where the cost is – it is in the creation of the tooling. The first run of a product doesn't pay for the die work: the second and third runs are where the money is made."

Everyone should read this conversation with Joe Hayter. He makes some interesting points. I think once again, the proof is in the pudding. The respective importers should take a look and their product lines and FOCUS on their strengths - not on duplicating what everyone else is making. We have a train market that is saturated with too much high-end product and too much identical product from different companies. There's also too much regular traditional product too... but that's as much from poor advertising, poor distribution and high pricing as anything else.

I've strongly felt that in recent years, some of the high prices on lower end product are because the high-end product needs the "welfare subsidy" - it can't and doesn't pay for itself!! And with the ever increasing demands of the high end market, a tool or die from 2 years ago no longer has the acceptable detail level to even warrant being run again. This is certainly why MTH has taken their previous "Premiere" Line offerings and put them into the Railking line. The former Premiere product no longer suits the desired detail level from adult hobbiests, although MTH has stated they tooled for longevity. So they have these dies that have much more life to them, but the market changes so quickly...

I'm certain that much of the new product being tooled up is NOT being tooled for the long haul. The extra cost of doing that is too risky.

I'll say this until I'm blue in the face, but the adult market needs to take a good hard breather and let up a little. And someone with one of the companies needs to tell them all to slag-off! Some of this scale tooling money needs to be diverted to promotion of the hobby in non-traditional sources. Besides, there is NO shortage of scale product out there already. There's needs to be some NEW product for beginners that has all the excitement that the product of 50 years ago offered kids - not just overpriced rehashes of the same trains offered decades ago.

The technology needs to be something that can be easily adapted and grown into. In other words, a kid gets a basic affordable train set. He shows interest. Now the parents feel that spending more money on the hobby isn't a waste. And besides, having an operating car of some kind in every starter train set is way more important than any electronics – get the kid interested first! Don't scare the parents away with high prices and overwhelming technical mumbo jumbo. They need to be able to "step up to" having control and sounds. Right now, it's all or nothing. There are parents who are nervous about dropping $300-$400 into a train set when they are unsure that their kid will take an interest in it. There's nothing gradual about it.

And yes, I have seen 8-year olds who have mastered TMCC and understand the operation. These kids also have bonafide train nuts for fathers who understand this stuff too... not a father who remembers Lionel from 30 years ago and hasn't seen or run one since.

[FJ and G]

Brian,

I'm still reading your reply (haven't yet finished) but I want to make a quick comment on Fasttrack.

Fasttrack is another case of one-upmanship, IMO. If you've been following the ads of the BIG 3 closely, you will notice that K-Line, MTH, and Lionel have each been waging a war against each other on such items as Transformer; e.g., my starter brick has more watts than does yours; a greater details war; Brand L is better than brand K; and, lastly a war on track, e.g., our ovals are bigger than your starter ovals.

MTH had the 031 and a nice carpet track that monopolized the market. Lionel's tube track was difficult to put together, the turnouts fried, and the track was unfriendly to carpet (having said this, I like 027 tubes).

Anyway, Lionel decided to get some of MTH's action by designing another "carpet" track. And furthermore, they can now boast that their oval is bigger than the others. From everything I've heard, their bet has paid off. They have a lovely looking toy track that holds together well; you can even hang it up on the wall and it stays together.

Fasttrack is not for me, btw, but I can understand why many would like it.

Now, I'll continue reading Brian's thesis! :-)


dav

[FJ and G]

Nice comments, Brian.

Reg: "Some of this scale tooling
money needs to be diverted to promotion of the hobby in
non-traditional sources."
---------

Doubt that will happen anytime soon tho. The companies are pretty much at war w/each other right now. Also, 3-rail people with the big bucks have deep pockets and a desire to get as many trains of their youth as possible; things they couldn't afford back then and only could dream about.

&, regarding $300 or $400; parents will, in fact, drop that kind of money if they know the quality is good and if they know their kid will be interested (as you mentioned they might not know if their crum snatchers will like the set).

That brings me back to your idea of promoting the hobby. if some working layouts that kids can play with are displayed, then parents can take their rug rats there and go for a "test ride"

dav

[jkerklo]

Tooling is certainly a factor, but there is another element of manfacturing and, in China particularly. I have some experience with manufacturing consumer electronics products on the Pacific rim.

Production efficiencies require that you decide what and how many you want in big batches. Shipping is also by container load (a lot of trains), and scheduling has to consider a long supply chain. None of this is easy.

Lets say you have an engine that can be made with any of a number of roadnames, that's the only difference. If you are going to make 1,000 engines, how many roadnames should you have? A mistake means not having a product many want, and having to dump a bunch no one wants. Safest decision is few roadnames.

Not an easy business. Especially with four or five serious competitors.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com