I was absolutely shocked to see this layout pictured on page 83 of the December 2008 issue of CTT. It belongs to Mark Stephens. The reason it shocked me is because that was my dad's layout as a kid. Well not that exact one but he did have the D-63. Only 1 picture of his layout that I know of exists. My grandpa bought it for him the week after Christmas 1952. It was the Christmas display layout at Younkers in Downtown Des Moines. The layout sat in the basement of my grandparent's house in Des Moines until the house was sold in 1978. The layout was taken apart and I still have all of it. I have all of the track, trains, accessories, buildings, and even the freeway. Only the corners of the table itself still exist as the rest of the table was discarded of when it was taken apart. We didn't know about the history of it though and until seeing that picture always just assumed that it was a one of a kind layout.
I'd love to learn more about it and how many were originally built. Is Mark Stephens a member of this forum? I'd love to speak to him. Thanks for the pic Mark and CTT. My dad was pleasantly surprised.
Now he's inspired to rebuild it. I'm going to find the back issue from Nov 2000 that shows how the wiring was done. The mountain was paper machier and the ground cover was long dried up and rotten anyways but recreating them should be easy. At least I still have all of the important parts! If anyone out there knows anything else about this display, please let me know.
Fred
I did some research. While there may have been hundreds of these layouts built originally, only 5 or so are known to still exist. I have no idea if they are by the original owners though. I thought the table was gone. My dad said he found it. We have at least 90% of the original layout including the city scape and working freeway. The only thing that we know for sure is gone is the original paper machier tunnel but recreating it would be pretty easy.
I spoke to Roger Carp at CTT today about it and he seemed pleasantly surprised to hear of ours. He said that if we restore it to send in some pictures. Next year our goal will be to restore an original Lionel Department store layout and share it with the world again. I'm sure that it won't be as vibrant as it originally was but some careful cleaning may go a long way. I've already had the trains cleaned up so they run fine. It's not exactly a detailed realistic looking hi-rail layout with 3rs trains running on it but it is a rare piece of Lionel history and it's going to live again!
I think thats great. I'm a fan of scale like details but have a special fondness for those store display layouts. Good luck on the project and I hope we'll see some photos!
I bought the back issue from Nov. 2000 that had an article on one of these layouts that was restored. It's a very good article as it shows the original wiring as well as some old pictures of the layouts being assembled at Lionel. Sadly the gentleman that restored it is no longer with us so I can't call him. I wonder what happened to his layout? From the 2 out there that I have seen (and there are still a few others), both have not been owned by the original owners and both had to be pieced together and recreated in a number of ways. I'm proud to say that everything will still be original on ours with the exception of the mountain. We have everything else right down to track, working lights, etc... My dad is also the original owner.
I wish I knew what it was worth. After doing some research, of all of the postwar displays, this one is apparently the most coveted among collectors. That's nice to know! From what we can tell, my grandfather probably saw it being taken down in Younkers in Des Moines just after Christmas of 1952. They were probably going to throw much of it away and he probably asked them if they'd just sell it instead. I'm not completely sure of this as my grandmother is old and doesn't remember much and my grandfather died in '64 but it's the most logical thing we can think of. My dad was 5 at the time and had no interest in trains up to this point. They didn't make a whole lot of money back then but lived comfortably so buying a large display for a 5 year old didn't make the most financial sense unless it was a good deal. The only thing my grandmother remembers is that it was a financially "generous" gift at the time. He probably paid far less than $200 for the whole thing, trains, included. For 1952 money, that was still quite a bit as adjusted for inflation according to an online calculator that's about $1600 today. He may not have even paid that much. I wish I knew more. I've learned an awful lot in the past week though and am excited that I may be able to see it run again. Just think, if he hadn't have gotten this set, I may have never gotten into trains and they are a very large park of my life.
I would have a hard time selling it if it's that rare...but if it was the difference between feeding my family or running trains, then I would sell it in a heartbeat. It's unique, that's for sure. I'm sure more info will turn up as you investigate even further.
Wes
I never had any intention of selling it. Not even before I knew what we had. I want to restore it and keep it working.
I believe a book was printed not too long ago on the Lionel Dealer Display layouts. Not sure of the exact title, but I know others would be able to help. Also, what area are you located? Some may be able to help, or direct you to someone who can.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
Fred, this is a great story! Please keep us updated as you go about restoring that layout.
- Clint
Fred. I keep checking this thread to see if anyone had more info or pictures. I too would be interested in updates as you and your Dad put life back into this layout. I always meant to ask the guys at a not so local hobby/train shop where they've got their window display layout which, while not larger than 10' x 5', has two loops with both entering mountain tunnels (same mountain) at one end of the track but at different levels and points in the mountain. It also has roads. Some mountainside buildings. Can't remember the rest.
Could you scan and post that pic you have? Someone might see it and have some more input.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
I found 3 original pictures of it. My dad had some extra things setup on it but it's all there. The pictures are getting pretty dark so a little time with photoshop to clean them up would go a long way.
I have all the info I need now. The Nov 2000 issue of CTT had an excellent article on one complete with wiring and multiple diagrams.
What I'd like to do is to chronicle the entire restoration pice by piece complete with pictures of the raw, dirty looking pieces all the way to their eventual second life. I need to start taking pictures of what we do have. I can tell you that it won't be set up until next summer at the soonest. I am getting married in April so I'm still taking up valuable space at my parent's house, namely my layout is in the way! My soon to be wife loves my train hobby though so she wants to see the old layout live again even if it means in our house. It will be back one way or another!
BTW: I am in Spring, TX which is a suburb of Houston on the north side.
fredswain ................The layout was taken apart and I still have all of it. I have all of the track, trains, accessories, buildings, and even the freeway. Only the corners of the table itself still exist as the rest of the table was discarded of when it was taken apart.
................The layout was taken apart and I still have all of it. I have all of the track, trains, accessories, buildings, and even the freeway. Only the corners of the table itself still exist as the rest of the table was discarded of when it was taken apart.
Fred......What would be the assembled dimensions of the layout?
We found the rest of the table!
It's 5' X 9'
Fred,
You can't do too much planning for this restoration project.
You noted that you will soon be married and your fiancee (you are the fiance) supports your train hobby. Space for many of us is an issue. I can't recall anyone on this Forum saying their layout was too big. Fortunately for you, the layout's 5' X 9' size is already known before you go to seek out housing.
I'm going to need some help from the guys here, but there are a lot of devious calculating resourceful geniuses amongst this pack, eager to share their knowledge and experience.
One such mad scientists here has a spare bedroom with a day bed (trundle bed?); his layout is on casters or wheels, and his layout slides right under the bed. Another has a separate layout for his children (grandchildren?); and the layout for the kiddies slides right under his larger one. My first layout was 4' x 8' and the length on one side was mounted on hinges to the wall so it could be pivoted down and out of the way when necessary. The father of a friend of mine, not to be outdone, actually rigged a ceiling suspension system where the entire layout could be raised up and out of the way in a room in a finished basement. Others have rigged their layouts so some element of portability could be built in, like removable reinforced grab handles on one side's length; and the layout could be stored leaning up against a wall behind furniture. And still others subscribe to the modular theory where in a worst case scenario the layout can be dissected into 2 or 4 parts without completely tearing the whole thing apart WHEN you ever have to move (again), or move the layout up and down some narrow stairs or into a dedicated attic space.
The reason I bring this up now is that this all may impact what and how you and your Dad go about reassembling and restoring this piece of history and once again rejoining the 4 assembled corners you have back into a full layout. You want this to be a solid restoration that won't suffer the same dissassembly fate all over again. You don't want to think of the "what ifs" and "if only" after the fact.
And such a backup plan will impact how you may want to go about securing everything and anything to the board surface and underneath, including the legs, bracing, and the like. A layout 5' X 9' will all of the goodies on it will be heavy by definition, so you may want to consider weight in the materials used as well as strength. It may also impact how you go about wiring (soldering versus plug-ins, expansion, unused electrical feeds for additions or changes, and the like. Or a center removable cut-out for when that 5' in layout width seems like a mile when you have to rerail a derailed train or fix something.
A little anticipation and planning will go a long way before the restoration......or an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And if you haven't been in these uncharted waters before, take advantage of the many folks who have already conquered these frontiers.
A world of ideas, problems, solutions, and resource lay at your fingertips here on this Forum.......and they are free! Nothing like adding two more addicts to the fold!
Just a thought.
The room that the layout will be in is 18' x 19' so there is plenty of room for it. The original was on wheels so it could easily be moved around if necessary. The table top is 3 pieces with the smaller piece being in the middle. The plan was to build an individual framework for each section that bolts together. This way it could be taken apart and moved fairly easily.
I will definitely have room for it at the new house. My soon to be wife even says a main priority is a train room! The goal is a room above a 3 car garage that I could ultimately build my layout in.
Keep us posted on your progress!
I scanned the old pictures. On the back they are dated Jan. 10, 1955. My dad was 8 years old playing with his first camera. The quality is obviously deteriorating and in need of some work.
This shot shows the left half of the layout. The oil derrick, oil tanks, crossing gate and signal, station and lamp posts are original. The cattle pen in the foreground was added later. The army men are also not original! Visible is his Erie Alco's coming around the back corner.
Here's a shot from a little more to the right and closer in than the first one. The gate is down and the Erie's are roaring through. The building in the foreground is just several made out of cardboard stacked up. They were actually orange juice containers. You could mail away 5 cents for the roofs. A couple of army men were standing guard. In each of these you can clearly see the working freeway in the background.
fredswain I scanned the old pictures. On the back they are dated Jan. 10, 1955. My dad was 8 years old playing with his first camera. The quality is obviously deteriorating and in need of some work. This shot shows the left half of the layout. The oil derrick, oil tanks, crossing gate and signal, station and lamp posts are original. The cattle pen in the foreground was added later. The army men are also not original! Visible is his Erie Alco's coming around the back corner. Here's a shot from a little more to the right and closer in than the first one. The gate is down and the Erie's are roaring through. The building in the foreground is just several made out of cardboard stacked up. They were actually orange juice containers. You could mail away 5 cents for the roofs. A couple of army men were standing guard. In each of these you can clearly see the working freeway in the background. This last picture is the only other one that is known to exist. It was taken from farther back in the basement so it's hard to see detail. You can make out the city scape on the right side complete with the Lionel spire above. The original backdrop does still exist today but in this photo it had fallen down behind the layout. It is there though. Part of it is just sticking up against the wall underneath the freeway. The freeway is not on the back wall though. It's legs are inside the rear main line. In the foreground you can see the old ZW transformer on the roll around stand. This wasn't done like this from Lionel. Originally it was located behind the buildings. My grandfather wanted to be able to move it around so he rewired this part of it. He had plugs in multiple locations on 3 sides of it. There were 2 plugs on each end including 2 in the front. It wasn't DCC but he could move around. You can also see the fence that my grandfather built around the front 3 sides. Apparently a couple of tired train crews got sidetracked so to speak and in the ensuing derailments fell to their deaths off of a cliff. The fence stopped that from ever happening again. I have pictures of a couple of restored layouts but they were published in CTT and I'm not about to post that article or it's pictures here. In the Dec. 2008 issue of CTT you can see one on page 83 though. When you look at that photo and compare it to these, you can make everything out. We still have all of it except the mountain. We still even have the trains and the transformer and all still work. If I take current pictures of the layout pieces, it'll make everyone sad. It's not pretty.
WRONGO, Fred........FOLKS HERE SEE WHAT YOUR LAYOUT ONCE WAS AND WHAT IT WILL ONCE AGAIN BECOME! If you could see some of the absolute worthless junk we buy/acquire and restore, you would understand my comment. The major difference is that your layout has far more historical and personal value to you and your Dad and to every one of us whose collection contains 60 year old memories. Trainiacs don't see a hunk of coal.......they see a diamond.
Pictures are not as bad as you describe. I blew then up to 200% and could see what you were talking about. Like the 2032 Erie ALCos! Still have them?
Need some ideas on replacing the mountain? The guys on this forum will bury you with ideas, materials, and techniques.
You've got our attention. Go for it!
Yep still have the Erie's. They still run good too. I had all of the old trains including the Western Pacific F units, the Erie's, the 2025, and the 2026 steam engines all gone through and repaired this year so they run great. I'm currently working on cleaning and shining up his aluminum passenger cars. Unfortunately those are too long for this layout. Keep in mind I'm working on my own trains every night including a stud rail layout (which is quick and easy to do btw!) using hand laid track that uses O-27 rail as well as some custom built freight cars. Then there's the n-scale. I'm just too into trains!
As far as the mountain goes, I'm no stranger to scenery and have built my share of mountains. This one will be pretty easy by comparison. I'd really like to talk to someone who has one of these layouts to see what materials Lionel used. The goal is to use the same techniques as original which includes trying to build the mountain the same way out of the same type of materials that it originally was built.
What you have is really special in every way imaginable. What my Dad and Uncle would set up for me every November through February was not nearly as magnificent but I cannot tell you what I would give to be able to re-create or restore it now. It is the very meaning of why most of us are in this hobby to begin with. I for one would like very much to see the progress of the restoration.
BTW, I just picked up a complete set of the 2500 series passenger cars and the guy I bought them from told me both he and the previous owner used an aluminium polish to shine them. He himself uses something called Tarnite. I googled it and its out there. The cars by the way look fantastic. Not a real glossy shine just removes the tarnish and gives them a real silvery look.
Mike
I'll try to get some new pictures of the trains, structures, and table pieces within the next week or so to show what everything currently looks like.
I got some of the original table pieces down out of the garage attic. They've been up there for 25 years and that's only in this house. The thing spent years stored before that. Keep in mind this is no climate controlled in Houston. They've definitely seen better days. The weather is pretty bad right now but when I get a good day I'll take some pictures and post them. I'm also planning to get some pictures of the trains too. Updates will go slow as I can't really do much until I get a new house and that's after the wedding at the end of April.
Today we got the old pieces down from the garage attic. All but the freeway. It's still up there. This is going to take alot of effort to restore. Since my job is 2D drafting and 3D modelling, I'm going to slowly draw up and recreate a virtual model of it so it can be printed out and recreated by others out there. I'm also going to do drafting prints of all of the structures for the same reason. In the end I may as well write a book on it. I'll have to think about that. Here are the pictures of the table and buildings as they appeared after sitting up in a non climate controlled Houston garage attic for over 30 years.
As you can see in these pictures it's all pretty rough. You can tell where all of the structures went though as well as how the pieces were cut and fit together. There are 2 corners missing which I mentioned earlier in the thread. I do have those. All fo the trains and structures are in good shape. It will be the tabe and the buildings that will be hard to clean up. As you can see I do have the original backdrop but it is snapped in half. It was all really neat for 1952.
Looking forward to seeing progress on this over the next year or so as it looks like a great project to take on
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
I love those ART DECO style buildings. Depending on where you set this up, it would be very tempting to carry that theme onto a backdrop that bolts on to one or two sides. I would shun any new scenery methods, and give it the colored sawdust (or maybe static grass) for the greenery.
This deserves all the love that a rusty '57 would get...
She's pretty rough, but in all honesty, it doesn't look as bad as I had feared. Thanks for keeping us updated, Fred.
Much of the rough look is just dirt. I cleaned the top of 2 of the buildings and it's amazing how different it looks. The windows on the buildings are paper that is glued to the structures. It's very brittle. I'm going to have to think about the best way to tackle them. I'm thinking about steaming them off very carefully and the scanning and cleaning them up in photoshop. I will try to reuse as much of the originals as possible but will use other options to patch the missing and damaged areas.
For now I'm going to store everything in my climate controlled unit until I get a house. My wedding is April 25th so the earliest I'll work on this will be sometime next summer. I may take some measurement and make some prints but I probably won't begin any restoration efforts until the next house. Next chance I get I'll take some pictures of the trains and the structures that were on the table. I'll also try to get the freeway down and get pictures of it. It's pretty simple. We need to look for the cars. I don't know where they are but my dad has an idea of where to look. If we've got those, all that is missing is the original paper machier tunnel and that's not hard to recreate.
I thought it might be a nice gesture when I restore it to build a clone of it with a few modern modelling techniques and then donate the recreation to the Galveston RR museum. I love that place and it was all but destroyed when we got hit by Hurricane Ike this year. Their layouts including their Lionel layout were completely destroyed.
...will the gift registry be at Grzyboski's, or Lone Star...?
A pleasant surprise! I took a damp cloth to a small section of gray painted "roadbed" to clean some of the grime off. What appears in my pictures to be water damage and faded paint is actually decades worth of dirt and grime on top of the paint!!! I was shocked to see a near perfect gray surface staring back at me after some scrubbing. The less I have to repaint the better as keeping it as close to original as possible is the goal. The hardest area will be the green "grass" areas as they are painted green but there are small woodchips on top. Cleaning these surfaces without rubbing off the wood chips will be very time consuming. It'll probably involve a small brush and lots of patience. I took a couple of pictures of a small cleaned up area next to an area that I didn't touch. When I get a chance I'll upload them. It's quite a difference.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month