Comparing little Alcos

[alton6]

I don't have either Lionel's or K-Line's small Alco Fa, but have been curious about them. Here are a few questions for those in the know:

--Which one is arguably the better puller?

--Which is quieter in operation?

--Which is a better slow speed runner?

--Which is larger/taller?

I'm thinking mostly of MPC or later era units, to try to keep apples with apples. Thanks.

Carl

[Anonymous]

Carl,

We've got some from the post-war era, which is earlier than you mention, but I'll put in my two-cents-worth anyway. The 1952-vintage Lionel 2032 Eries are pretty good pullers, but they don't kick in until the voltage is up. To keep these going they've got to be running at maybe 40 scale mph. They also are the lower profile units and the motor makes a distinct buzz.

We also have a 1964 model Lionel Rock Island Alco with a two-position e-unit. It's an even better puller, but again it requires some voltage, though not as much as the Eries. It also sits up higher, since it has a stamped frame, but in my opinion that makes it look less realistic. It's also not quite as loud.

While not an ALCO, our 1976 Lionel GP-9 in N&W paint probably performs somewhat like the same vintage ALCOs. Its Pullmor motor responds more readily to voltage, resulting in a low train speed of 10 smph or thereabouts when powered by our CW-80 transformer. It will creep around with 8-10 cars for hours at that speed, and is not especially loud, though the motor groans on turns. It's a better puller than the ALCOs.

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The [}:)] Doctor is in! I noticed you did not bring Magna-Traction into the Mix! I have a
Santa Fe Alco #218 (it is wearing a MPC shell till I can get a proper replacement) that
has Magna-Traction that is a pretty good puller. It's due for a E-unit replacement soon
(possible electronic unit) Otherwise, It pulls a fair amount of post & modern cars around. I think I had 10 or 12 at one time. I also use a K-line SP switcher with traction
tires that can pull a few more at a fair pace. But, that is a different apple!
I remain the humble, yet[}:)] Doctor!

[Roger Bielen]

I've a set of the K-Line Collector Club Golden State FA's, O27. I converted them to TAS TMCC, added a B unit for the electronics. They have no problem pulling the full consist of GS matching passenger cars w/ Rwy express boxcar, nor a consist of mixed O and scale freight. I usually limit my freight consistes to about 16 -18 cars otherwise it looks too long on my layout.

[lionelsoni]

I put a motor into the erstwhile dummy unit of my 1950 "Anniversary Alco" 2023 set. It has no trouble pulling a train of 13 modern 2400-type streamliners.

[Anonymous]

I have the K-Line Alco FA set in Santa Fe that is pictured in the 2003-2004 Catalog. The second A Unit is only a horn unit, and the set pulls 6 MTH passenger coaches. However, I had to put a spring under the front truck to keep it from jumping the track under full load. I personally like the looks of the smaller FA units.

Richard

[douellet]

I have both a Lionel and a K-Line Alco. The Liomel is from the early 80's (I haven't run it for years) and a ten year old K-Line Sant Fe. In the looks department the K-Line is much nicer, does not have the stamped metal frame showing and has better paint and decoration. Both engines were quite inexpensive, so I guess it's a matter of choice.

I just dug out the K-Line Alco and ran it on a 36' loop of track. It takes alot more juice to get it moving than the Williams GP9 I was running. It's pulling 6 cars and I'd say that's about enough for it. It's fairly loud but it looks great with its set of K-Line streamline passenger cars. I'd buy another one if K-Line updated it with upright can motors with flywheels and metal trucks. I'm not a fan of truck mounted motors no matter who makes them.

[alton6]

Thanks for the responses. Sounds as though they are both moderate (at least) pullers, and both somewhat noisy. I don't think there ever were any Lionel Alco FA's with Pulmor motors made, even postwar. Is this true?

Was the Lionel SF 218 the only one made with magnetraction? This would seem like a good idea, especially with the lower budget motor.

Also, which FA sits up higher from the trucks, K-Line or Lionel? My little K-Line S2 switcher rides really high, as do a lot of the o-27 K-Line cars.

[brianel027]

Okay Carl, I have both locos - Lionel MPC era and K-Line versions.
•The basic shell castings are the same... very minor differences.

•K-Line version is a tad lower than the Lionel MPC version. Because of the folded sheet metal frame the Lionel has less "see through" space around the trucks. But the K-Line one looks much better as the shell fits over the sheet metal frame.

•Around 1996 Lionel went from a sheet metal frame to a plastic frame (cheap cheap), supposedly so that version rides lower, but I don't have one. I would take a very very low price to get me to buy one too. I noticed by the catalog illustration, the last Alco Lionel offered (from the Alien Rescue Set) was shown with the prior sheet metal frame.
Around the same time, K-Line started adding metal handrails, steps and replaced the former cheesy plastic decorative horn with a metal one.

•The truck mounted DC can motor is inheritantly by design, a little noisey. I have found the earlier K-Line locos run a little more quietly. I have found the spin of the gears a little tight on some of the newer late 1990's models.

•Lionel has bounced between a filled in Alco front, or a wide open coupler opening. In this case the K-Line version wins hands down. Much nicer looking. Some K-Line Alcos came with a die-cast operating coupler on the front. I don't believe they do now.

•Both K-Line and Lionel Alcos come with 2 motors. There has been one or two from Lionel sets that may have come with just one. I have found with my Lionel can motored engines that they run with less gear-growl noise than the K-Line ones.

•You will (as I advised to Richard) want to place a spring between the front truck and the sheet metal frame on the K-Line Alco... I do this to all locos, K-Line and Lionel alike.

•The can motored engines are by nature, fast runners. K-Line has recently put a slide switch underneath the MP-15 (maybe the Alco too) so you can run the motors parallel (the way the engines have always been wired) or in series. You can wire the motors in series yourself, though it will reduce pulloing power a bit.

I find it's just eaiser to use a lower voltage setting transformer to run these DC can motored locos. Most Lionel units put out a starting voltage of 6-8volts. The Lionel 1033 has the BU setting which is perfect with 0-11volts. Any modern MRC unit will also work well.

•Lionel MPC through the 1970's made the Alco FA with the Pullmor motor. Most came with a 2-position e-unit. Some like the CN and SP came with 3-position I believe. You can find these on ebay in Santa Fe (blue/silver, war bonnet), Canadian National (safety-stripe scheme), Western Pacific, Erie (2-tone green pass. scheme), Delaware & Hudson (blue/silver), Southern Pacific (daylight scheme), Amtrak (bloody nose scheme) and a few others... I'm going by memory here.
I believe the CN and SP Alcos were made with the diecast Bloomberg type truck sides normally used by Lionel with the GP-9's etc.
I custom built an Norfolk Southern Alco with trucks off a Geep and they do look nice on the Alco.

K-Line Alcos are in (again by memory) Erie (black/yellow), Santa Fe (war bonnet), NYC, Pennsy (newer 5-stripe version is the one to have), Southern Pacific, Union Pacific (the last one's from 2001-2 are real nice), Western Pacific, and Southern (both from early train sets), New Haven (uncataloged for NETCA), Conrail (uncataloged for CR employees) and others I'm sure.

Carl, you can also "fill in" the open ends of the S-2 switcher which makes it look much much better. You can also add some more weight to the K-Line or Lionel Alco's and make them run a little better. I've rebuilt my cheap Lionel Industrial Switchers so they can pull 10-15 cars pretty easy. I normally run 6-8 with it. As it came I doubt it would have pulled that.

For the money, I'd go with the K-Line Alcos over the more recent Lionel ones. Compare the Lionel New Haven or Santa Fe versus the K-Line New Haven or Santa Fe Alcos and the K-Line ones win hands down!!!
Next choice would be one of the Lionel MPC ones, if you can find one in good shape. I'm sure you could find a postwar unit, used but in decent shape.

I have several MPC Alcos I got with shells that were pretty beat up - which is why I bought them - to repaint them to modern roadnames. Parts are available to fix them. I'd be cautious of the MPC units if the motors look abused or run badly on a test run. MPC used nylon gears including a nylon worm gear wheel inside the motor truck - which is a pain to replace if it's shot. Don't pay much for those.

Hope I helped.

[cnw1995]

I have the MPC-era Santa Fe FA - it can pull a pretty long train of 'light' MPC-era plastic cars. It looks like it has only one motor above the rear truck.

[alton6]

brianel,

Oh, yeah! You helped. I thought you were lurking out there somewhere. Have you thought about writing a book....?

I take it from your post that you may not be real keen on postwar FA's. Is it mostly the looks?

One of my ongoing quests, like you I think, is to find diesels in toyscale that don't lord over their consists size-wise. It's not a problem in steam, as there is lots of 027 stuff.
But, I'm just not a real steam fanatic. It's OK. I must have been born too late...

I have a couple of MTH PS-1 diesels with a bunch of sounds and such. This is fine. You can turn it off, and they run smoothly (and quietly) with full O scale cars. It would be nice to have a choice of o-27 diesel power with motors as smooth and quiet.

Carl

[brianel027]

No Carl, I have nothing against the postwar units really. You're right, they don't look as nice (as far as paint jobs) as any of the newer ones.

If you want to be creative (and I find I have to these days), you can shorten the height on some engines and make them look much better on an 027 layout. I've done this to my GP-9's, MP-15's, and U36B's. The Lionel 14 inch U-Boat in particular in a good candidate. The basic look of the U-Boat does resemble some of the more modern diesels. By shortening the height, you make the diesels A) not tower about your other cars B) they actually will look bigger - that is more long and lean - by not looking like a shoebox on wheels.

You can't do this to many other diesel like the Railking ones because the walk decks are part of the shell casting. Oh, I suppose you could do it, but it sure would be a job.

If you want a real nice looking 027 diesel, take a Lionel Geep or RS-3 sheel, cut the length and shorten the height, and put it on a K-Line MP-15 chassis. I've done this and the RS-3 in particular looks great. It's such an improvement.

I just figure if the companies won't make it for me, I'll make it myself. And regardless of what the marketing geniuses at the companies think - these locos look great in contemporary road names! I've never heard a kid looking at my layout yell "oh wow, the New York Central, cool!" They do have a connection to what they see today.... Conrail, CSX, Norfolk Southern.

[alton6]

".....shoebox on wheels." Yeah, those Lionel U-boats are monsters all right. Pretty clunky. But, I know they have their fans. I have the Frisco 8571 and 8572, powered and dummy, and the GN 8771. Cutting them down sounds like a good idea. I've thought about turning the Great Northern into a dummy, as it's a pretty cranky engine, if I could find a good deal on a unit to swap out. I like seeing two-three-four locos at the head of consists. The black and orange Rio Grande geeps look pretty impressive that way with full scale cars.

On the Alcos; how wide are these puppies? a full 2.5 inches? Or....? Any thoughts on slimming locos down? You know, a POWER diet?

I vaguely remember someone asking somewhere whether the bodies of postwar, MPC et. al, and K-line were at all interchangable. Possible?

[brianel027]

Carl, the length of the Alco shells between Lionel and K-Line are slightly different - the K-Line one being a little shorter. The Lionel ones should be interchangeable. But note that the early postwar Alco came on a die cast frame and differs a little from the later budget-minded version with the sheet metal frame. I know guys who have taken MPC shells (for their improved paint and looks) and put them on postwar loco frames.

The width of the Alco's is 2-1/4 inches, which is right on the mark for the smaller traditionally sized you and I are both running.

If you have a steady hand, and are good with tools let me know which engine you want to "027-ize" (shorten) and I can help you out, or at least give you some suggestions. I don't think you need to worry about the Alco FA in this respect... they're right on in my book.

On your Great Northern U-Boat... have you had the motor apart to give a good service lube and cleaning, replace brushes, etc? That very well may help. Also Lionel only put one set of center rail pickups on the U-Boat. Putting another roller pickup on the other dummy truck will go a long way toward smoother electrical pickup and thus better operation. Classic Toy Trains did a story on tuning up the MPC locos a long time ago. I can look up the date of that issue if you want.
Maybe Bob Keller can find you a copy of that article... if you like MPC stuff, it's worth reading.

[alton6]

Thanks for the offer. Cutting down locos is for now one of those "one-of-these-days" projects, as I am pretty tied up remodeling part of the house at the moment. Not a great time to be doing delicate work on plastic trains. I'll probably get to it eventually, though. Could fit a block of redwood or pine inside the unit and rip it down with a clean panel blade on the table saw if I was careful. What do you think?

I am intrigued by the potential of the Williams "Golden Memories" UP Alco FA. Williams diesel engines are good runners, and the ones I have, at least, are QUIET and dependable. Maybe a couple of dummies could be cut in half and rejoined to make a B unit... I hope they are not as wide as the rest of Williams' diesels and sit pretty close on the trucks. If these items really are "exact" replicas of the Lionel postwar products, they might be pretty cool.

From the various comments in this thread, I am concluding:

--K-Line leads in appearance, has non-powered units, but makes more noise.

--Lionel is somewhat quieter and is maybe a better puller. Shells are more interchangable (newer shells on older, sturdier postwar frames, etc.) for more variety.

--Williams has potential.

Are these reasonable conclusions? Have I missed something?

[Anonymous]

Carl,

Update. Since my earlier post, I checked out the Lionel 231 Rock Island FA-2 from 1961 (not '64), with stamped frame, on our layout. While not as attractive as the earlier cast frame models, it's about as noisy but a much better puller. I hooked up ten cars, mostly of the plastic truck variety, but with several scale cars with metal trucks or heavy load. The 231 groaned and stuttered a little on starting with this train, but, once it got going, about 12 volts would hold it to a steady moderate pace. Higher voltage would send it highballing.[:0]

[Kooljock1]

If this were just a beauty contest, I'd rate:

1. Original Post War ALCo FA's with the cast frame
2. Williams "Golden Memories" Series
3. MPC era A-B-A sets like the Espee and CN mentioned by Brianel
3. (TIE) K-Line units
4. Modern era LIONEL units with truck-mounted CAN motors
(and these can be broken down into stamped frame and plastic frame versions, the filled-in pilot version looking better)
5. The L-T-I era cast frame UP and Erie sets(they had cast-frames, but they went cheap on the couplers, leaving an ugly "over-bite" on the front of the frames...a real shame!)

But for operation, I'd rate:

1. Williams
2. Original Post War LIONEL with die-cast frame
3. K-Line
3. (Tie) Post War LIONEL with stamped frame
4. MPC with die-cast trucks
5. LTI with cast frame(but too ugly to purchase!)
6. MPC with plastic trucks
7. Modern-era LIONEL with truck mounted CANs.

These ratings are surely subjective, as I don't have a scientific method of comparison, but just a general over-all impression.

Jon [8D]

[Anonymous]

I have the Lionel New Haven Alco A's #s6-18922 and 6-18923 that were built in the early 90's with the truck mounted can motors in the lead and horn in the dummy so far they seem to do alright pulling wise they will pull all of my 21 cars and caboose fairly nicely they are a little loud and if you want trains that remind you of your childhood then these are the culprits they look like toys but I dont mind the only trouble I've had with them is the horn is not loud enough and the shell has no opening at all to let the sound out when you blow the horn but other than that I like them.[^]

[wallyworld]

I have the K Line black and red RI units that are part of The Rocket set and I have surprised myself inasmuch as they are very reliable and are actually more fun to watch than the more and prototypical expensive units I have. The front truck does have a nasty habit of overriding the rail if I have the full five coaches in tow and especially if I goose the power too quickly, most often on a small radius curve.

[brianel027]

Wallyworld, your problem will be totally solved by putting a small flexible spring about 1/2 size between the frame and the front truck. The spring slips over the guide pin that goes into the arched slot in the metal frame.

Also bear in mind gang with kooljock Jon's list that the William's Alco is really in a whole different league from the Lionel and K-Line versions we're discussing. The Williams units are closer to scale in size and very very nicely detailed. They could win the competition against other even better quality Lionel engines.

I guess I could also agree with Jon's listing. But if you are on a budget and watching your dollars, the K-Line Alco's are probably your best bet. You might get lucky though and find a decent older Lionel one on ebay... though most the older Lionel stuff attracts far more bidding action than anything else.

Fleet, the New Haven Alcos you have were made in 1995-6. I did want those, but the looks were sub-par when compared to K-Line: black unpainted shell, fuzz on the orange paint (at least on units I've seen upclose), the horrible open coupler space on the front, and the bad spacing between the N and the H in the New Haven logo.
BUT (in reference to truck mounted can-motored units) one of the reasons I think some of the Lionel units run quieter is that on ones I've seen, the traction tires are on the same side of each motorized truck. K-Line tends to put theirs all over the place, but usually one on the left of one axle and the second one on the right side of the other axle OF A single motorized truck.
You guys will notice that where these engines tend to "growl" the most is going around curves.

[wallyworld]

Hey brianel027...installed the spring this afternoon and it completely resolved the problem..much thanks. I was so pleased I lashed it up to one of my road's longer freight
drags in run 8 just to see if I could put it on the ground..not a problem even with intentionally starting up on a long curve-great suggestion.

[Anonymous]

<<Also bear in mind gang with kooljock Jon's list that the William's Alco is really in a whole different league from the Lionel and K-Line versions we're discussing. The Williams units are closer to scale in size and very very nicely detailed. They could win the competition against other even better quality Lionel engines. >>

Actually, Williams makes two different Alcos--the scale version and a smaller version (very similar to the small Lionel Alcos) for the Golden Memories series.

<<You guys will notice that where these engines tend to "growl" the most is going around curves.>>

The growl you hear at low speeds and going through curves arises because the AC track power is full-wave rectified but not filtered before being fed to the DC can motors. The motors are thus getting unfiltered DC. This evidently causes the motors to vibrate, and these vibrations are what we hear as a growling sound.

To quiet these engines and other engines of similar design, I have built an auxiliary box that converts the AC to filtered DC (using a full-wave rectifier and a lot of capacitance) before feeding it to the track. With filtered DC, these engines run VERY quietly.

However, DC track power does not work with engines that have horns, since DC may activate the horn constantly. Also, with filtered DC, these engines do not handle as well--they tend to start suddenly and can be hard to control at slow speeds. Unfiltered DC actually spikes the motors 120 times per second, which causes the growl but also overcomes stiction in the drive train, thus allowing the engines to start smoother and run better at slow speeds. Finally, DC track power can magnetize the solenoids in track-powered switch machines, resulting in rather bizarre behavior; fortunately, the solenoids seem to become demagnetized when operated by AC again.

Richard Bjorkman

[brianel027]

"To quiet these engines and other engines of similar design, I have built an auxiliary box that converts the AC to filtered DC (using a full-wave rectifier and a lot of capacitance) before feeding it to the track. With filtered DC, these engines run VERY quietly."

Richard, what do you mean or do for the capacitance?

I didn't mention here, but I have pulled circuit boards from a number of my locos and run them on straight DC current. I find the engines do run more quietly and much smoother with consistant speed. Although there still is a little growl noise on the curves over the straight. I have also removed one traction tire from each truck if the two are on opposite sides of the same truck. I adhere the remaining traction tire with 3M carpet tape.

Now, it's been said that no 2 motors of this type run at the exact same speed. So I've also tried experimenting with just motorized truck. Again there is still some noise on the curves. The only units I've left as single motor units are my Budd Cars, since I tend to run on their own or with a couple of extra passenger cars. Part of this was motivated by some of the single DC motor locos I have - like the Lionel steamers, Docksides, and Industrial Switchers - which all run quietly.

I have noticed some noticable inconsistancy with the tightness of the gears in some K-Line engines. On one MP-15 from the Overland Set period, the gears are very tight, and although they do turn, it takes more effort to do so. I have also found (for whatever reason) that some of the earlier made locos (manufacture date, not model type) run smoother and more quietly than newer ones.

Just some of my observations. Curious to know more what you did Richard. Thanks.

[Kooljock1]

Just a clarification: As Richard states above, I was talking about the Williams "Golden Memories Series" ALCo FA, not the earlier scale offering.

The scale version is actually one of the few out there with a fixed pilot, and is indeed in a totally different class than the units we all know and love.

Jon [8D]

[Anonymous]

<<Richard, what do you mean or do for the capacitance? >>

The crux of the matter is that not all DC is the same.

If you run AC through a full-wave bridge rectifier, you get what is known as full-wave rectified AC or pulsating DC. This is what Lionel and K-Line do on their inexpensive engines. The resulting wave form is a pretty rough 120 Hz wave. It will run a DC can motor but, because of the roughness, is rather noisy.

The next step is to apply capacitance to filter the pulsating DC. This smoothes out the electrical wave form so that it approximates a horizontal line. This is what I did, and the result is very quiet operation of previously noisy engines. By the way, the more capacitance, the smoother the horizontal line; the smoother line, the quieter the engine.

(There is a third step you could go through--voltage regulation using a solid state voltage regulator. I did not bother with this, and I wouldn't recommend that anyone else do it either.)

So let me try to describe what I did:

The box I built has four terminals. Two are AC input from the transformer, the other two are filtered DC output to the tracks. The output terminals are marked + and -.

I bought a heavy duty full-wave rectifier at Radio Shack and three of the largest-capacitance electrolytic capacitors Radio Shack has (don't have the part numbers at the moment). The rectifier has four terminals, two marked with a squiggle, one marked with a +, one marked with a -. The electrolytic capacitors have two terminals, one with a + and one with a -.

Wire one of the input terminals of the box to one of the squiggle terminals of the rectifier (doesn't matter which one).

Wire the other input terminal of the box to the other squiggle terminal of the rectifier.

Wire the + terminal of the rectifier, the + terminals of all three capacitors, and the + output terminal of the box together.

Wire the - terminal of the rectifier, the - terminals of all three capacitors, and the - output terminal of the box together.

Connect the output of your transformer to the input terminals of the box. Connect the output terminals of the box to the track. Generally, - would go to the outer rails and + to the center rail, but this doesn't have to be the case.

I will try to get the Radio Shack part numbers. Using the wrong component values or reverse-wiring the capacitors can cause an explosion.

Richard Bjorkman

[Kooljock1]

Just please remember not to try this with any engines equipped with TMCC, RailSounds, or DCS. Using DC track power will permanently kill the electronics.

If you DO use this method(and it really does work!), and you have a stable of both kinds of engines, you MAY want to have a way of clearly labeling what kind of power is being fed to the tracks at any given time, so you don't accidentally "fry" something!

Jon [8D]

[brianel027]

For folks considering my "madness" yes, I have labeled throw switches between AC and DC current to the track. I don't run any command, use off-board sound and have also marked engines that are DC only with a small sticker underneath the frame.

If I were to do this all over again, I might to it differently. But when I got back into the hobby, truck mounted DC can motors were the norm. Many engines didn't have horns - and the horns in those that did left much to be desired. So many of my locos are of this type. I've repainted a lot (probably 90-95% of all locos) so I have things in the exact roads and paint schemes I like - most of which still have yet to be offered in equipment that runs and looks good on 027 curves.... hard to believe, but true. Sure, I like the NYC, Chessie, ATSF and PRR. I just would like more options than those. So I've done it myself.

So I went the way I did based on what I had and how to make it run better. And I'm anxious to try the capacitors to see the improvement they make.

[Anonymous]

Here are the Radio Shack components I used in my AC-to-filtered-DC box:

276-1185 full-wave rectifier, 25 amps, 50 volts
272-1022 4700 microfarad electrolytic capacitor, 35 working volts DC

I used three of the capacitors in parallel.

Hope this helps.

Richard Bjorkman

[lionelsoni]

I put rectifiers inside my (mostly postwar) locomotives. That way I can run them on AC, but with the benefits of DC to the motors. Because any short circuits due to derailment occur upstream of the locomotive, I can use a much more modest rectifier, no more than 5 amperes; and, because the only DC load is the motor and e-unit, I usually get enough filtering with 4700 microfarads. You have to avoid connections to the locomotive frame downstream of the rectifier. This usually means ungrounding the motor field winding and insulating the e-unit frame (or wiring the e-unit coil around the built-in switch and, optionally, through another SPST switch).

Some folks warn than running an e-unit on DC will magnetize it. I have never observed this problem. I also run my (mostly Lionel O27) switches on DC and have never seen the magnetization that Richard describes.

[brianel027]

I've been using DC power for over a year now. Although I also have the option of using AC current too. I do notice that the electomagnetic e-units can hesitate a little with DC current, that's the only drawback there. I do notice the track and loco wheels need cleaning a little more frequently - but that's the nature of DC current.

I am anxious to try the capacitors as Richard mentions. I will say my locos run smoother and more quietly on the DC current. I call it a poor-man's speed control - because speed is much more consistant and smoother on DC current. It is a noticable difference. But I will note I also remove the circuit boards from the engines. Using the DC current with the board intact doesn't make the difference that it does once I remove the board.

I do know part of the "growl" noise is just inheritant with the truck mounted DC motor. Part of it too is due to having 2 traction tires on opposite sides of the same motor truck. The growl is more noticable on curves over straight track. I remove one traction tire and adhere the other one - and this has helped.

Your idea is neat too Bob. I may have to try it.